Normal Guy - 06 September 2007 09:53 AM

I have no problem with them teaching the monkey theory and big bang and what not, but it’s you guys who seem to have a problem with creation being taught.  I wonder why?  Oh… let me guess… Because you think it’s not really science?  HAHA… hilarious.

That’s because creationism is fantasy, not science.  There’s no logic, reasoning or evidence that the universe was created in such a manner.

NGUY laments: We can total up the number of cases the ACLU has handled that defended Christians and compare it to the total number of case where they have argued for the taking away of rights of Christians

SH: The ACLU has never in their history argued for “taking away the rights of Christians”

NG: Again where were they when the judge legsislated that it’s constitutional to kill babies?

SH: No judge in U.S. history has ever legislated anything, since our three-tier system of government does not give them that power.  Only legislative bodies may legislate.

And fwiw, infanticide has nothing to do with constitutional law.  It is - as far as I am aware - a felony criminal offense in every jurisdiction within the USA.

NGUY accuses me: mr. fundy Christian hater.

SH: Not so.  I hate no one.

Pastor Rennick has taught me to love the sinner and hate the sin.

There is only one valid way to be a christian?  I’m intrigued.  Tell me more.

Normal Guy - 06 September 2007 09:53 AM

- It’s pretty simple really.  A Christian follows the teachings of Christ who is Jesus.  Jesus says believe on Him and ye shall be saved.  Saved from what you may ask… saved from eternity in hell. 

Hmmm.  the primary meaning of the Hebrew word “Sheol” is grave or “place of the dead”.  It did not become the “hell” of your eternity until some extensive rewriting of the bible occurred in the 1700s.

Same with the word “hades”.

Normal Guy - 06 September 2007 09:53 AM

- Now, on the other hand, Jesus says not to sin.  ( I guess that throws a kink in your thinking that Christians think freedom is being free to sin heh?) Jesus knows it’s human nature to sin.  And now that Jesus brings in the new covenant, we are forgiven for our sins.  Now that doesn’t mean we can go out and sin and think hmmm… I am already forgiven so I can go do whatever I want.  No, it doesn’t work that way.  It all boils down to ones heart.  God will know when one doesn’t really mean it when he says I’m sorry and asks for forgiveness.  It has to be heartfelt and genuine.  And it’s a constant battle keeping from sin.  But unfortunately we all falter, be thank God we are all covered by the blood of Christ.

The “church” is actively involved in politics to limit citizen’s freedom here just as it is in places like Saudi Arabia.

Why does the christian agenda include denying same sex citizens the freedom to marry?  Marriage is a civil and legal recognition by the government.  If two consenting adults want to marry, why should the government care what sex they are?

Why does the christian agenda include denying children the freedom to access sex education and birth control?  Because sex is “dirty” and sinful?  Because ignorance and abstinence are how sex is controlled, not the freedom to learn and protect themselves?

Why does the christian agenda include denying all women the freedom to abort an unwanted fetus? 

Why does the christian agenda include denying pharmacy medications to patients if it is against the pharmacist’s beliefs?  Why isn’t the patient allowed the freedom to decide for himself/herself whether or not to take a particular medication?

Again, why do christians actively pressure the government to curtail the freedoms of others?

Normal Guy - 06 September 2007 08:53 AM
- It’s pretty simple really.  A Christian follows the teachings of Christ who is Jesus.  Jesus says believe on Him and ye shall be saved.  Saved from what you may ask… saved from eternity in hell. 

SH: CC, as well as most readers, know that this particular interpretation of the Christian gospel is not shared by all Christians.

But it’s certainly one popular point of view.

Concerned Citizen-If I understand your question correctly-I am willing to take on one of them-of course there are different interpretations though.  I myself was directly healed by prayer through neuro surgery & medicene for a short time, in 1985.  So I believe that God gives us those tools to use.  I also think He could miraculously heal anyone at anytime if He chooses to do so; but as is my case He can develop our faith & character when we go through difficult times. 

About the gay issue-I shamefully admit that I used to be one of those in the church with a plank in my own eye who thought gay people were rebelling against God.  Then I met someone gay & shared with her about the love of God.  She said “God hates lesbians-doesn’t He? I said, “If that is what you think, then the church is not doing a very good job”. We became friends & I realized she is a wonderful person who has felt gay since she was a little girl.  Honestly, my own father is a closet gay & my brother was gay & died of aids.  I really believe the Lord has a great heart for gay men & women.  The church needs to bring them to Jesus just the way they are.  The same way we would anyone else.  Why is the church so mean to gays & then so easy on the porno kings, adulterers, & tax evaders?  That is a big pet peeve of mine. 

Oh well.  That is just one woman’s opinion.

A homosexual representation of about 7% is normal in most mammal populations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

Since it is natural and normal to find homosexuals in the human population, why does the “church” work so diligently to deny them freedoms and legal status?  Has it nothing better to do?

Not that I really care.  But it speaks volumes of the flaws of the religious rationale with regard to “sin”.  How can supposed creations of god be inherently bad?  Because the church says so?

I don’t buy it. I’d like to hear that straight from god, not the gay-hating hypocrites who claim to represent him.

Again, the church to me is increasingly irrelevent (see falling attendence).  My real concern is that the government has no business evaluating a citizen’s love life as a factor in limiting that citizen’s freedom.

Normal Guy - 06 September 2007 09:53 AM

I belive woman should be in the role of Pastor because the bible says so.

Those “other” christians must have a different bible, too:

“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”
--Some Guy Named Paul, I Corinthians 14:34-35

Normal Guy - 06 September 2007 09:53 AM

Woman just aren’t supposed to preach to the man.  The man is considered the spiritual leader in the house and it’s his responsibilty to keep his house as the Lord teaches.  We all have roles we play in life. 

But these “rules” for your artificial caste system are so laughably arbitrary:  No pee pee, no preachee.

If you believe I’m making that up, read Deuteronomy 23:1.

Normal Guy - 06 September 2007 09:53 AM

The bible says that no woman should usurp authority over a man.  Meaning they should be in the pulpit preaching. 

You have somehow completely misunderstood 1 Timothy 2:12 - also written by that guy Paul.

Women are commanded to keep silent in the church.  Which would mean that they should NOT be in the pulpit preaching.

I think I’m starting to see the real problem here.

Normal Guy - 06 September 2007 09:53 AM

- I believe [the ACLU] could be a great orgination but when they defend the likes of NAMBLA and the KKK… They lose credibilty to me.  I don’t see many constitutional rights that they have defended.  There are a few but I believe they have hindered the constitution in to many instances.

The ACLU didn’t “defend” the actions of NAMBLA or the KKK. 

The ACLU defended free speech and the right of all groups, even the unpopular ones, to excercise their free speech.  The ACLU has never advocated sex between adults and children, and has never advocated racism.

In the Massachusetts case involving NAMBLA, the defense is not trying to say that the alleged murderer is not responsible for the murder, but rather something the murderer read on the internet.  As silly as that may sound, some of you apparently will still fall for it.

Normal Guy - 06 September 2007 09:53 AM

If someone praying in school offends you.. haha… That is too bad.  You pass out science books and history books why not bibles? 

Because attendence at public schools is compulsory, and not all the parents want their children to be proselytized.  That may a difficult concept for you to acknowledge. The church sees the schools as a great marketing gimmick because of the captive audience.

If church attendence was mandatory, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Do they pass out bibles at your church?  I doubt it.  Even so, that’s where religious indoctrination belongs, not in public schools.

Normal Guy - 06 September 2007 09:53 AM

People that believe in the monkey theory are just as much apart of that religion as people who believe in creationism. 

Evolution is a theory by which species adapt and change according to their genes and environment.  It has a mountain of evidence, it can be observed directly (scientific method), and it is a logical explantion for nearly all plant and animal life on earth.  And because it is real science, it can be wrong.

Creationism is absolute and can never be wrong.  The inspiration for this hypothesis is presumably attributed to a divine being. However, it is also an explanation that relies completely on a writings of a single man 3500 years ago while his tribe was wandering lost in a desert.

Normal Guy - 06 September 2007 09:53 AM

It’s complete hypocrisy on your part to allow “science” books and deny bibles.

It’s rational selection.  The irrational is far too vast to cover in 12 years.

Public school is where science, math and history are taught.  Church is where religion is taught.  Why aren’t you demanding more Algebra and Darwin’s Theory in Sunday school?  Sheer, blatant hypocrisy?

Normal Guy - 06 September 2007 09:53 AM

So the believing in the monkeys or big bang or whatever can be considered a religion as well.  And the schools are pushing those theories.  Would it not be fair to teach them all and let the students decide what to believe? 

Evolution and cosmologic expansion are theories based on evidence, reasoning and scientific study.  They are not “religions’ in any sense.

Take a piece of paper.  Draw line down the middle.  On one side you have facts, observations, and logic.  That’s what we teach the kids.  It’s a well-structured list.  It will help them build bridges, save beached whales and do their taxes later in life.

On the other side of this line you have your “beliefs”.  Millions and millions of diverse rationalizations, notions, dreams, dogmas, whims, opinions, and imaginings supported by various degrees of faith, persuasion, and certainty.  This will supposedly help them do what?  Gain a superior afterlife?

So, um, what if your beliefs are off by a few marks.  What if the Buddhists are right?  Then guys like you are much more screwed than the atheists.

Why would we waste time steering the children in the wrong direction?

Part of letting the children decide for themsleves what to believe is allowing them to choose your church and decide to attend.  That is religious freedom.

LoriBelle - 07 September 2007 11:50 PM

I really believe the Lord has a great heart for gay men & women.  The church needs to bring them to Jesus just the way they are.  The same way we would anyone else.  Why is the church so mean to gays & then so easy on the porno kings, adulterers, & tax evaders?  That is a big pet peeve of mine. 

Oh well.  That is just one woman’s opinion.

This is very reasonable.  I never read that Jesus expressly condemned homosexuality.  I believe that paying taxes was one of the few civic actions Jesus spoke out about directly.  And, as I recall, he failed to condemn an adulterer - apparently there were no witnesses.

But there seems to be some difference between what Paul might do and what Jesus might do in similar situations of compassion.  My money would be on the more liberal J-man.

Concerned Citizen:  I am going to tell you a little story to prove a point.  Try not to fall asleep.  :0 Through the years I have spent time in different denominations.  When I was about six my parents got divorced & they stopped going to church.  So I started going with my friends.  This resulted in my being exposed to different Protestant religions.  Then when I grew up I was even open to the Catholic church where God led me for a season.  I am not throwing stones at their religion, this probably could have happenned in any church.  Once I was kneeling in prayer & several people kept asking me to move so they could sit down.  There were plenty of other places to sit, so to be honest this aggravated me because I thought it was extremely rude.  I felt the Lord say to me in my spirit “Lori, don’t look at man, look at me”.  So Concerned Citizen, I now pass that thought on to you.  Don’t get caught up in all of the negative, hurtful voices telling you of God.  Because those may be false.  That is not who He is.  He is unconditional love, patient and mercy before He is anything else.  Then if you are still not interested, that is your choice as we all have.

LoriBelle - 08 September 2007 06:37 AM

Don’t get caught up in all of the negative, hurtful voices telling you of God.  Because those may be false.  That is not who He is. 

The problem with the irrational is that it encompases the entire spectrum; the warm fuzzy and the bloody beheadings.  I’m no expert, but I know irrational people shoot abortion doctors to please god.  They also hijack airplanes and plant IEDs to kill indiscriminately.

They’ll tell you your god is wrong, and it never ends.

LoriBelle - 08 September 2007 06:37 AM

He is unconditional love, patient and mercy before He is anything else.  Then if you are still not interested, that is your choice as we all have.

The god of the bible is wrathful, vengeful and jealous, just like the one of the qu’ran and the tanakh.  Which irrational source is most correct is not necessarily the one you would like it to be.

And since it is the inerrant word of god himself, the bible cannot be spun in such a way as to ignore these qualities. Fear is the key to control.

The choice being offered by god?  Everlasting life in heaven, or everlasting damnation in the fires of hell.

Hmmm.

Let’s put this scenario into an analogy.  A handsome, wealthy, powerful man asks you to marry him.  If you do, you live a life of luxury and splendor. 

If you don’t, you get fired from your job, your home and car are repossessed, and you will separated from your friends forever.

Would you marry such a man?  Is he giving you a fair, ethical and moral choice?

I believe I am merely failing to fall for such a god.  The only reason we need to be saved is because he is the one threatening us.