Freedom, how many casinos have you been around, and have you looked at the surronding area?
I’ve been around most of the major ones, went with the job I had at the time. New Jersey is a good example, the casinos went in, land values soared(make what we been going through look like chump change) thousands lost their homes when they couldnt pay the taxes. Everyone of the casinos in the mid west look great on the indian reservations, the rest of the area makes watts after the riots look like the Waldorf. No thanks they can keep them, and the hookers and the drugs and all the rest of the garbage that comes with the casinos.
What we have here is another case of a bunch of people wanting a free ride on someone else’s tab. And just as Freedomisntfree, there is no such thing as a free lunch ether.
Freedom, how many casinos have you been around, and have you looked at the surronding area?
I’ve been around most of the major ones, went with the job I had at the time. New Jersey is a good example, the casinos went in, land values soared(make what we been going through look like chump change) thousands lost their homes when they couldnt pay the taxes. Everyone of the casinos in the mid west look great on the indian reservations, the rest of the area makes watts after the riots look like the Waldorf. No thanks they can keep them, and the hookers and the drugs and all the rest of the garbage that comes with the casinos.
What we have here is another case of a bunch of people wanting a free ride on someone else’s tab. And just as Freedomisntfree, there is no such thing as a free lunch ether.
We are not NJ. I have been to Fox Woods and its beautiful....its all how you do it. I am not saying thing would be perfect, but you could eliminate property taxes or reduce them greatly. As I said, Florida is in a unique position and could capitalize on it. I’m just simply saying it could be done.
Freedom, how many casinos have you been around, and have you looked at the surronding area?
I’ve been around most of the major ones, went with the job I had at the time. New Jersey is a good example, the casinos went in, land values soared(make what we been going through look like chump change) thousands lost their homes when they couldnt pay the taxes. Everyone of the casinos in the mid west look great on the indian reservations, the rest of the area makes watts after the riots look like the Waldorf. No thanks they can keep them, and the hookers and the drugs and all the rest of the garbage that comes with the casinos.
What we have here is another case of a bunch of people wanting a free ride on someone else’s tab. And just as Freedomisntfree, there is no such thing as a free lunch ether.
We are not NJ. I have been to Fox Woods and its beautiful....its all how you do it. I am not saying thing would be perfect, but you could eliminate property taxes or reduce them greatly. As I said, Florida is in a unique position and could capitalize on it. I’m just simply saying it could be done.
There are MANY things in this world that “could” be done, but shouldn’t!!
Freedom, how many casinos have you been around, and have you looked at the surronding area?
I’ve been around most of the major ones, went with the job I had at the time. New Jersey is a good example, the casinos went in, land values soared(make what we been going through look like chump change) thousands lost their homes when they couldnt pay the taxes. Everyone of the casinos in the mid west look great on the indian reservations, the rest of the area makes watts after the riots look like the Waldorf. No thanks they can keep them, and the hookers and the drugs and all the rest of the garbage that comes with the casinos.
What we have here is another case of a bunch of people wanting a free ride on someone else’s tab. And just as Freedomisntfree, there is no such thing as a free lunch ether.
Not sure what you mean by “free ride on someone else’s tab”, but as far as the rest of your post, I agree with you completely!!
Freedom, how many casinos have you been around, and have you looked at the surronding area?
I’ve been around most of the major ones, went with the job I had at the time. New Jersey is a good example, the casinos went in, land values soared(make what we been going through look like chump change) thousands lost their homes when they couldnt pay the taxes. Everyone of the casinos in the mid west look great on the indian reservations, the rest of the area makes watts after the riots look like the Waldorf. No thanks they can keep them, and the hookers and the drugs and all the rest of the garbage that comes with the casinos.
What we have here is another case of a bunch of people wanting a free ride on someone else’s tab. And just as Freedomisntfree, there is no such thing as a free lunch ether.
Not sure what you mean by “free ride on someone else’s tab”, but as far as the rest of your post, I agree with you completely!!
Freedom, how many casinos have you been around, and have you looked at the surronding area?
I’ve been around most of the major ones, went with the job I had at the time. New Jersey is a good example, the casinos went in, land values soared(make what we been going through look like chump change) thousands lost their homes when they couldnt pay the taxes. Everyone of the casinos in the mid west look great on the indian reservations, the rest of the area makes watts after the riots look like the Waldorf. No thanks they can keep them, and the hookers and the drugs and all the rest of the garbage that comes with the casinos.
What we have here is another case of a bunch of people wanting a free ride on someone else’s tab. And just as Freedomisntfree, there is no such thing as a free lunch ether.
Not sure what you mean by “free ride on someone else’s tab”, but as far as the rest of your post, I agree with you completely!!
The Upperclass is always getting a free ride.
There are many reasons why I voted for Amendment one. I disagree with the upperclass has been the only one that gets a free ride. Welfare and medicaid have given alot of people the reason to attain a free ride when they have had the same chances that the supposive rich do. Education, but chose not to become a tax paying citizen. Save Our Homes gave everyone a free ride. Rich,poor and the middle class and still is.
Freedom is not free but it should be fair for all.
By the way I am from NJ that area was very blighted. The casinos did bring jobs year round. I don’t remember the hookers walking on the boardwalk let alone the drug dealers. Gambling does bring revenue in. Does it really matter if it just comes from the Indians? To be really free is not to limit yourself without options.
We need better options to get this tax mess straighten out. What legislator wants everything to be fair at this time? It is the “Fair” part that everyone can’t agree on even after Amendment One was voted in. It will get those legislators looking in those closets to get rid of that glut that has been accumulating since about 1998 when the property values in Florida started to grow and no one really cared till now. We are at a point of being closer to what the values of our homes are worth compared to the rest of the nation. There still needs to be some fine tuning but if we had some great non bias tax assessors it could help. Let alone we need to get rid of jobs that could be cheaper if we privatize them. Like most parks jobs are lawn mowing and cleaning. There must be a cheaper way for these services. No job loss it’s just not a government job now. What’s wrong with that?
Don’t allow the way we tax to stop at Amendment One. Make government accountable. They haven’t done enough yet for all.
Freedom, how many casinos have you been around, and have you looked at the surronding area?
I’ve been around most of the major ones, went with the job I had at the time. New Jersey is a good example, the casinos went in, land values soared(make what we been going through look like chump change) thousands lost their homes when they couldnt pay the taxes. Everyone of the casinos in the mid west look great on the indian reservations, the rest of the area makes watts after the riots look like the Waldorf. No thanks they can keep them, and the hookers and the drugs and all the rest of the garbage that comes with the casinos.
What we have here is another case of a bunch of people wanting a free ride on someone else’s tab. And just as Freedomisntfree, there is no such thing as a free lunch ether.
Not sure what you mean by “free ride on someone else’s tab”, but as far as the rest of your post, I agree with you completely!!
The Upperclass is always getting a free ride.
There are many reasons why I voted for Amendment one. I disagree with the upperclass has been the only one that gets a free ride. Welfare and medicaid have given alot of people the reason to attain a free ride when they have had the same chances that the supposive rich do. Education, but chose not to become a tax paying citizen. Save Our Homes gave everyone a free ride. Rich,poor and the middle class and still is.
Freedom is not free but it should be fair for all.
By the way I am from NJ that area was very blighted. The casinos did bring jobs year round. I don’t remember the hookers walking on the boardwalk let alone the drug dealers. Gambling does bring revenue in. Does it really matter if it just comes from the Indians? To be really free is not to limit yourself without options.
We need better options to get this tax mess straighten out. What legislator wants everything to be fair at this time? It is the “Fair” part that everyone can’t agree on even after Amendment One was voted in. It will get those legislators looking in those closets to get rid of that glut that has been accumulating since about 1998 when the property values in Florida started to grow and no one really cared till now. We are at a point of being closer to what the values of our homes are worth compared to the rest of the nation. There still needs to be some fine tuning but if we had some great non bias tax assessors it could help. Let alone we need to get rid of jobs that could be cheaper if we privatize them. Like most parks jobs are lawn mowing and cleaning. There must be a cheaper way for these services. No job loss it’s just not a government job now. What’s wrong with that?
Don’t allow the way we tax to stop at Amendment One. Make government accountable. They haven’t done enough yet for all.
I completely disagree with you that Save Our Homes gave people an unfair ride. To the contrary, I am a native of this state, and have paid my dues. The fact that you say that you are from NJ explains why you feel this way. Save Our Homes has benefitted those of us who have chosen to stay put in our homes through the years. And have not moved every time the winds change direction.
Save Our Homes was started as an incentive to stay put in your home, and to curb the outrageous growth. It worked very well on that level. If you didn’t get in on the plan, then it’s certainly no surprise that you and others think it’s not fair!
We chose to follow the plan, therefore we benefitted and EARNED the right to benefit. It was available to everyone. I don’t feel badly in the least. I played by the rules, as did many other people, and was rewarded. Quite simple.
Freedom, how many casinos have you been around, and have you looked at the surronding area?
I’ve been around most of the major ones, went with the job I had at the time. New Jersey is a good example, the casinos went in, land values soared(make what we been going through look like chump change) thousands lost their homes when they couldnt pay the taxes. Everyone of the casinos in the mid west look great on the indian reservations, the rest of the area makes watts after the riots look like the Waldorf. No thanks they can keep them, and the hookers and the drugs and all the rest of the garbage that comes with the casinos.
What we have here is another case of a bunch of people wanting a free ride on someone else’s tab. And just as Freedomisntfree, there is no such thing as a free lunch ether.
Not sure what you mean by “free ride on someone else’s tab”, but as far as the rest of your post, I agree with you completely!!
The Upperclass is always getting a free ride.
There are many reasons why I voted for Amendment one. I disagree with the upperclass has been the only one that gets a free ride. Welfare and medicaid have given alot of people the reason to attain a free ride when they have had the same chances that the supposive rich do. Education, but chose not to become a tax paying citizen. Save Our Homes gave everyone a free ride. Rich,poor and the middle class and still is.
Freedom is not free but it should be fair for all.
By the way I am from NJ that area was very blighted. The casinos did bring jobs year round. I don’t remember the hookers walking on the boardwalk let alone the drug dealers. Gambling does bring revenue in. Does it really matter if it just comes from the Indians? To be really free is not to limit yourself without options.
We need better options to get this tax mess straighten out. What legislator wants everything to be fair at this time? It is the “Fair” part that everyone can’t agree on even after Amendment One was voted in. It will get those legislators looking in those closets to get rid of that glut that has been accumulating since about 1998 when the property values in Florida started to grow and no one really cared till now. We are at a point of being closer to what the values of our homes are worth compared to the rest of the nation. There still needs to be some fine tuning but if we had some great non bias tax assessors it could help. Let alone we need to get rid of jobs that could be cheaper if we privatize them. Like most parks jobs are lawn mowing and cleaning. There must be a cheaper way for these services. No job loss it’s just not a government job now. What’s wrong with that?
Don’t allow the way we tax to stop at Amendment One. Make government accountable. They haven’t done enough yet for all.
I completely disagree with you that Save Our Homes gave people an unfair ride. To the contrary, I am a native of this state, and have paid my dues. The fact that you say that you are from NJ explains why you feel this way. Save Our Homes has benefitted those of us who have chosen to stay put in our homes through the years. And have not moved every time the winds change direction.
Save Our Homes was started as an incentive to stay put in your home, and to curb the outrageous growth. It worked very well on that level. If you didn’t get in on the plan, then it’s certainly no surprise that you and others think it’s not fair!
We chose to follow the plan, therefore we benefitted and EARNED the right to benefit. It was available to everyone. I don’t feel badly in the least. I played by the rules, as did many other people, and was rewarded. Quite simple.
Earned it??? Just because you’ve lived here, you’ve earned nothing.
SOH is nothing but a from of welfare by run amok entitlement mentality. Those sitting behind the shelter of SOH have no incentive to hold government accountable for run away spending and fiscal responsibility.
It’’s only a matter of time that SOH will be found illegal and/or the Real Estate market will be so broken that the majority of voters will see through this folly.
Freedom, how many casinos have you been around, and have you looked at the surronding area?
I’ve been around most of the major ones, went with the job I had at the time. New Jersey is a good example, the casinos went in, land values soared(make what we been going through look like chump change) thousands lost their homes when they couldnt pay the taxes. Everyone of the casinos in the mid west look great on the indian reservations, the rest of the area makes watts after the riots look like the Waldorf. No thanks they can keep them, and the hookers and the drugs and all the rest of the garbage that comes with the casinos.
What we have here is another case of a bunch of people wanting a free ride on someone else’s tab. And just as Freedomisntfree, there is no such thing as a free lunch ether.
Not sure what you mean by “free ride on someone else’s tab”, but as far as the rest of your post, I agree with you completely!!
The Upperclass is always getting a free ride.
There are many reasons why I voted for Amendment one. I disagree with the upperclass has been the only one that gets a free ride. Welfare and medicaid have given alot of people the reason to attain a free ride when they have had the same chances that the supposive rich do. Education, but chose not to become a tax paying citizen. Save Our Homes gave everyone a free ride. Rich,poor and the middle class and still is.
Freedom is not free but it should be fair for all.
By the way I am from NJ that area was very blighted. The casinos did bring jobs year round. I don’t remember the hookers walking on the boardwalk let alone the drug dealers. Gambling does bring revenue in. Does it really matter if it just comes from the Indians? To be really free is not to limit yourself without options.
We need better options to get this tax mess straighten out. What legislator wants everything to be fair at this time? It is the “Fair” part that everyone can’t agree on even after Amendment One was voted in. It will get those legislators looking in those closets to get rid of that glut that has been accumulating since about 1998 when the property values in Florida started to grow and no one really cared till now. We are at a point of being closer to what the values of our homes are worth compared to the rest of the nation. There still needs to be some fine tuning but if we had some great non bias tax assessors it could help. Let alone we need to get rid of jobs that could be cheaper if we privatize them. Like most parks jobs are lawn mowing and cleaning. There must be a cheaper way for these services. No job loss it’s just not a government job now. What’s wrong with that?
Don’t allow the way we tax to stop at Amendment One. Make government accountable. They haven’t done enough yet for all.
I completely disagree with you that Save Our Homes gave people an unfair ride. To the contrary, I am a native of this state, and have paid my dues. The fact that you say that you are from NJ explains why you feel this way. Save Our Homes has benefitted those of us who have chosen to stay put in our homes through the years. And have not moved every time the winds change direction.
Save Our Homes was started as an incentive to stay put in your home, and to curb the outrageous growth. It worked very well on that level. If you didn’t get in on the plan, then it’s certainly no surprise that you and others think it’s not fair!
We chose to follow the plan, therefore we benefitted and EARNED the right to benefit. It was available to everyone. I don’t feel badly in the least. I played by the rules, as did many other people, and was rewarded. Quite simple.
Earned it??? Just because you’ve lived here, you’ve earned nothing.
SOH is nothing but a from of welfare by run amok entitlement mentality. Those sitting behind the shelter of SOH have no incentive to hold government accountable for run away spending and fiscal responsibility.
It’’s only a matter of time that SOH will be found illegal and/or the Real Estate market will be so broken that the majority of voters will see through this folly.
Whatever you say buddy! And the voters have ALREADY voted. DEAL with it.
You also need to read my post in it’s entirety. And not misquote me for your own agenda. I did not say that we’ve earned it because we’ve lived here, I said that “we chose to follow the plan (the incentive of Save Our Homes), we played by the rules of it, so therefore we benefitted and yes, EARNED the right to benefit.” The plan was open to everyone.
You’re nothing but a begrudging, whiney loser, who doesn’t know when to just accept that you’ve lost this particular fight, and leave gracefully.
Freedom, how many casinos have you been around, and have you looked at the surronding area?
I’ve been around most of the major ones, went with the job I had at the time. New Jersey is a good example, the casinos went in, land values soared(make what we been going through look like chump change) thousands lost their homes when they couldnt pay the taxes. Everyone of the casinos in the mid west look great on the indian reservations, the rest of the area makes watts after the riots look like the Waldorf. No thanks they can keep them, and the hookers and the drugs and all the rest of the garbage that comes with the casinos.
What we have here is another case of a bunch of people wanting a free ride on someone else’s tab. And just as Freedomisntfree, there is no such thing as a free lunch ether.
Not sure what you mean by “free ride on someone else’s tab”, but as far as the rest of your post, I agree with you completely!!
The Upperclass is always getting a free ride.
There are many reasons why I voted for Amendment one. I disagree with the upperclass has been the only one that gets a free ride. Welfare and medicaid have given alot of people the reason to attain a free ride when they have had the same chances that the supposive rich do. Education, but chose not to become a tax paying citizen. Save Our Homes gave everyone a free ride. Rich,poor and the middle class and still is.
Freedom is not free but it should be fair for all.
By the way I am from NJ that area was very blighted. The casinos did bring jobs year round. I don’t remember the hookers walking on the boardwalk let alone the drug dealers. Gambling does bring revenue in. Does it really matter if it just comes from the Indians? To be really free is not to limit yourself without options.
We need better options to get this tax mess straighten out. What legislator wants everything to be fair at this time? It is the “Fair” part that everyone can’t agree on even after Amendment One was voted in. It will get those legislators looking in those closets to get rid of that glut that has been accumulating since about 1998 when the property values in Florida started to grow and no one really cared till now. We are at a point of being closer to what the values of our homes are worth compared to the rest of the nation. There still needs to be some fine tuning but if we had some great non bias tax assessors it could help. Let alone we need to get rid of jobs that could be cheaper if we privatize them. Like most parks jobs are lawn mowing and cleaning. There must be a cheaper way for these services. No job loss it’s just not a government job now. What’s wrong with that?
Don’t allow the way we tax to stop at Amendment One. Make government accountable. They haven’t done enough yet for all.
I completely disagree with you that Save Our Homes gave people an unfair ride. To the contrary, I am a native of this state, and have paid my dues. The fact that you say that you are from NJ explains why you feel this way. Save Our Homes has benefitted those of us who have chosen to stay put in our homes through the years. And have not moved every time the winds change direction.
Save Our Homes was started as an incentive to stay put in your home, and to curb the outrageous growth. It worked very well on that level. If you didn’t get in on the plan, then it’s certainly no surprise that you and others think it’s not fair!
We chose to follow the plan, therefore we benefitted and EARNED the right to benefit. It was available to everyone. I don’t feel badly in the least. I played by the rules, as did many other people, and was rewarded. Quite simple.
Earned it??? Just because you’ve lived here, you’ve earned nothing.
SOH is nothing but a from of welfare by run amok entitlement mentality. Those sitting behind the shelter of SOH have no incentive to hold government accountable for run away spending and fiscal responsibility.
It’’s only a matter of time that SOH will be found illegal and/or the Real Estate market will be so broken that the majority of voters will see through this folly.
Whatever you say buddy! And the voters have ALREADY voted. DEAL with it.
You also need to read my post in it’s entirety. And not misquote me for your own agenda. I did not say that we’ve earned it because we’ve lived here, I said that “we chose to follow the plan (the incentive of Save Our Homes), we played by the rules of it, so therefore we benefitted and yes, EARNED the right to benefit.” The plan was open to everyone.
You’re nothing but a begrudging, whiney loser, who doesn’t know when to just accept that you’ve lost this particular fight, and leave gracefully.
So the rules were buy a house in Florida and stay put? Until the recent amendment those that moved got clobbered with much higher taxes. Anyone without a vote get hammered too. The only reason people voted for the recent amendment is that they got a couple of hundred bucks and portability rights. That won’t last long. The tax problem in Florida is that the tax burden is being shifted to those that cannot vote and to future residents.
Stay put in your home or else you get hammered with huge tax increases? That’s a good thing? Some people are upwardly mobile and because of that, should not be penalized because they don’t and can’t stay in their starter homes.
“whiney loser” ?. I’m not happily shifting my financial obligations to others. Until Florida changes it’s inequitable tax system, the fight is not over.
The passage of Amendment 1 shows that those that are squealing about SOH are a vocal minority. Less than 40%.
The repetitive nature of the complaint is becoming shrill in nature and will be tuned out by all but the terminally stupid.
The SOH complainers state that the passage of Amendment 1 will bring us doom and gloom.
The local governments say that the passage of Amendment 1 will bring us doom and gloom.
Part of the problem as I see it is a bunch of people who bought at the end of a red hot market, and now don’t have a exit strategy. These are Free Market types who want to make 20% a year on their investments.
The other part of the problem is the local government (including state level) that is flush with cash and needs a lesson in economics.
It is a smoke and mirror campaign to confuse the public. Each party is blaming the other, but they are both blaming SOH.
We didn’t have a problem until speculators jacked the price of homes up, due to the under performing stockmarkets of post 9-11. Instead of going with T-Bills and government back securities, and waiting out the bear market, they ramped up the prices thru dummy buyers and shell corps. I know all about the beginning of the real estate boom, and Royal West Properties. It is a fascinating tale.
It’s all about GREED. And how other people tell me I’m not paying my fair share, because their investments aren’t making enough money.
Build me a bridge and cry me a river. I ain’t buying any of your voodoo economics.
The rise in home prices might have been caused by greed but the tax system will only slow down residential purchases by first time buyers and out of state buyers. Excess inventory in any market will only push prices down. In this case as prices go down so do tax revenues.
The taxing authorities are left with two choices, cut spending (my choice ) or increase taxes on those not sheltered by SOH. This will only make property even less attractive, feeding the downward spiral in home prices.
This cycle will only stop with higher ratios of resident occupants.
Voodoo economics? It depends on how much the taxing authorities raise the tax on non-owner occupied properties and commercial properties. But of course those under the shelter of SOH don’t have an incentive to curb government spending.
The passage of Amendment 1 shows that those that are squealing about SOH are a vocal minority. Less than 40%.
The repetitive nature of the complaint is becoming shrill in nature and will be tuned out by all but the terminally stupid.
The SOH complainers state that the passage of Amendment 1 will bring us doom and gloom.
The local governments say that the passage of Amendment 1 will bring us doom and gloom.
Part of the problem as I see it is a bunch of people who bought at the end of a red hot market, and now don’t have a exit strategy. These are Free Market types who want to make 20% a year on their investments.
The other part of the problem is the local government (including state level) that is flush with cash and needs a lesson in economics.
It is a smoke and mirror campaign to confuse the public. Each party is blaming the other, but they are both blaming SOH.
We didn’t have a problem until speculators jacked the price of homes up, due to the under performing stockmarkets of post 9-11. Instead of going with T-Bills and government back securities, and waiting out the bear market, they ramped up the prices thru dummy buyers and shell corps. I know all about the beginning of the real estate boom, and Royal West Properties. It is a fascinating tale.
It’s all about GREED. And how other people tell me I’m not paying my fair share, because their investments aren’t making enough money.
Build me a bridge and cry me a river. I ain’t buying any of your voodoo economics.
SOH frozen at Up 3%. Now because of greed some don’t want it to defrost. I guess I could wish everything could stay the same price my whole life. I am glad I make more than $1.35 an hour. Glad that didn’t stay frozen otherwise that would be voodo economics whatever that means.
Guess there will be no “change “ in thinking. There has been so much talk around the nation about “change” lately. What does that mean when most want the same or go back never going forward.How far back do we go before we go forward again?
The passage of Amendment 1 shows that those that are squealing about SOH are a vocal minority. Less than 40%.
The repetitive nature of the complaint is becoming shrill in nature and will be tuned out by all but the terminally stupid.
The SOH complainers state that the passage of Amendment 1 will bring us doom and gloom.
The local governments say that the passage of Amendment 1 will bring us doom and gloom.
Part of the problem as I see it is a bunch of people who bought at the end of a red hot market, and now don’t have a exit strategy. These are Free Market types who want to make 20% a year on their investments.
The other part of the problem is the local government (including state level) that is flush with cash and needs a lesson in economics.
This is the same tired argument. And it doesn’t hold water.
It is a smoke and mirror campaign to confuse the public. Each party is blaming the other, but they are both blaming SOH.
We didn’t have a problem until speculators jacked the price of homes up, due to the under performing stockmarkets of post 9-11. Instead of going with T-Bills and government back securities, and waiting out the bear market, they ramped up the prices thru dummy buyers and shell corps. I know all about the beginning of the real estate boom, and Royal West Properties. It is a fascinating tale.
It’s all about GREED. And how other people tell me I’m not paying my fair share, because their investments aren’t making enough money.
Build me a bridge and cry me a river. I ain’t buying any of your voodoo economics.
SOH frozen at Up 3%. Now because of greed some don’t want it to defrost. I guess I could wish everything could stay the same price my whole life. I am glad I make more than $1.35 an hour. Glad that didn’t stay frozen otherwise that would be voodo economics whatever that means.
Guess there will be no “change “ in thinking. There has been so much talk around the nation about “change” lately. What does that mean when most want the same or go back never going forward.How far back do we go before we go forward again?
This is the same tired argument. And it STILL doesn’t hold water.
I’m not happily shifting my financial obligations to others. Until Florida changes it’s inequitable tax system, the fight is not over.