A plan to link Tampa and Orlando was the centerpiece of the state’s high-speed rail program. But three years ago, Gov. Jeb Bush helped lead the fight to kill it - with help from freight rail companies CSX and Florida East Coast Industries.

Their victory led to a new passenger rail plan for Florida and a boon for the railroads. The plan gives priority to the purchase of existing lines owned by CSX, a major Bush family campaign donor, and FEC, another politically connected railroad company.

CSX is on the verge of signing a half-billion-dollar deal with the state for the sale of tracks in Central Florida. FEC began talks with the state about selling its rail right of way in South Florida and, in the process, attracted investors who bought the company. In that purchase, one of Bush’s longtime friends, Armando Codina, received about $255 million.

As for passenger service, the deal with CSX will bring 61 miles of commuter rail to the Orlando area. Meanwhile, freight traffic will rise sharply through Lakeland and Plant City over a stretch of track that has claimed six lives in three months.

And the Tampa-to-Orlando passenger link? It’s virtually dead, near the bottom of the state’s new priority list. 

Read the special report

Do you think the state is getting a good deal in its pending transaction with CSX? Share your thoughts here.

This commuter rail is a boondoggle of epic proportions. Floridians will not stop driving their passenger cars and trucks unless the price of fuel becomes so high that they must carpool. I do not feel as if anyone will ride the train to go back and forth to work.

I don’t need this transportation for work; but I would love to have access to it for pleasure.  The longer they wait, the more exepensive it is going to get.  I have lived here all my life (46 years).  I remember in the mid 80’s when a friend of mine moved here from Cleveland & she was very upset that we did offer many good transportation choices; but I did not know any better.

Considering the FACT that Tampa Bay area drivers are among the worst in the nation (as evidenced by what is in the news every morning and the long list of incidents reported in the traffic websites every day), a rail system may actually reduce the inordinately high rate of traffic fatalities here.  I hope someday that someone will come up with the idea of an Orlando/Tampa express rail with the end points being both airports with one additional stop at each end to handle passengers whose trip does not involve airlines.  Total dependence on cars without viable and functional mass transit is insanity.

We have Amtrak service into and out of Tampa twice daily, one southbound to Miami and one northbound to Orlando and points north.  But that’s not enough.

I believe we need better rail service between Tampa and Orlando on a more frequent basis than what is being provided by Amtrak.  Complement this with commuter rail already on the drawing board in Orlando and what is being decided in Tampa (with service to St. Petersburg via a new track on the Howard Frankland Bridge) and we can have a win-win commuter solution not only for Tampa Bay and Central Florida but those who commute between Tampa and Orlando as well.

The last thing we need is a twenty-lane Interstate 4 between Tampa and Orlando - it’s already widened enough to six lanes with the generous space in the median for passenger rail.  It doesn’t need to be the high speed bullet train that was previously envisioned.  A commuter rail service between Tampa and Orlando can operate and Amtrak can expand Florida service.  That way, passenger service can run on that dedicated track running in the middle of Interstate 4 and CSX can run their freight service on their own tracks.  On a side note, perhaps Amtrak’s Sunset Limited (the transcontinental train running between Los Angeles and Orlando) could expand its eastern terminus to Tampa.

After all, commuter rail/light rail is desperately needed, not only in the Tampa Bay area but between Tampa and Orlando as well.  Orlando as I mentioned earlier is getting commuter rail soon but as for the Tampa Bay area, if we don’t come up with a rail related transit solution soon we are going to see Los Angeles style gridlock with no end in sight.

OK lets say Florida gets a rail between Tampa and Orlando. Then what?
What no one seems to grasp is it costs money to do anything. So I need to taxi
to the rail station on this end, or drive and pay for some form of parking. Then
there are tickets for the train. When I get to the other end its a taxi or rental car to
get to my destination.
Or I can just drive my family of four, round trip in gasoline will cost me about $20
on average. ( I say on average figuring some will have more fuel deficient cars than others),
which I am sure will be less than one adult fare on the train. I make that trip at least once a week, tallying up close to 300 miles hitting the customers I have to visit in the Orlando area each time
They made the median a country mile wide on I-4 and still cars cant stay out of the
opposing lanes, so now they are installing guard rails. What happens when a car ends up on the tracks and meets a trian and a derailment occurs? The whole corridor shut down for 2-3 days clearing it up?
And who is going to subsidise this mess?  You?  Someone mentioned the LA-Orlando Amtrack run.
I can fly first class cheaper than I can take the train and be there in hours as opposed to days.  Amtrack hasnt broke even let alone turned a profit once in its entire history.

I am a native; so please help me out here.  If most people here are from up North, why does it work up there & not here?  I don’t get it.

DUSTY, if you’re doing direct sales (or service) to multiple clients in multiple locations, then commuter rail is reasonably not a service from which you would personally benefit.

For those folks departing from a single location and with a single destination, it’s more than practical when supplemented on each end by improved ground transit.

Former friend of the TBO Forum CAVEDOG aptly noted that such improved ground transportation would include expansion of the bus service using buses that are about half the current size (think “shortbus” school bus size)

Steve, it doesnt work if I am spendig a long weekend ether. Again by the time you firgure in cab or rental car plus the price of train fare for a family of four.  One day at disney, another at Seaworld or what have you up there, trip to Church St Statrion at night.....  Cab fare from motel to each and back again. The bus isnt an option if you got toddlers and all the gear associated with them, diaper bags, strollers etc etc.
Someone said why does it work up nother? It doesnt, except for a few cities such as New York, or Chicago, and even in Chicago it doesnt really work.  Our cities aren’t built to make it work. Our ‘industry” and places of business are spread all over he!!’s creation, there is no “central” business district in Tampa or Orlando or Miami or any other city down here.  We dont live close to where we work, so we commute by car.  I’ve lived and worked in five states plus Germany during my life time. and with the exception of my time in the service, I have never lived close to co-workers where car pooling was a viable option.  And most people are the same way.  Then you have to add in the fact that 9-5 died some years ago, so if I have to work late everyone else is supposed to wait till I get off, or vise versa?  See we got away from manufacturing which always ran on a pretty fixed time schedule, first shift ran z-x, and second shift x-y and third shift y-z, and it didnt matter what factory you worked for the shifts were the same.  Public tranportation and car pooling then worked. people also forget that the NY subway came about before the advant of the automobile, that the metro rail and subway was started in 1878. Chicagos in 1902, and Detroits public transportation system geared up 1860, Boston’s subway in 1892.  And business grew around the various terminals out of nessaccity. Today we have the cart in front of the horse trying to make transportation fit a sprawled out business infrastructure.

Dusty, you’ve simply cited another example of a scenario where a light rail system between Orlando/Tampa/St Pete would not be beneficial to you.

It’s reasonable to state that such a system would be essentially impractical for MANY people...perhaps even a strong majority of people living and working in Central Florida.

But it’s equally un-reasonable to suggest that such a system would not be practical and beneficial to many central Floridians.

And the reduction in individual passenger vehicle traffic provides a varying level of benefit for ALL Floridians.

Discussion last month included citations from the DART system in Dallas TX which geographically and socially is laid out in a manner much like central Florida (Orl/Tampa/St Pete).

Over 58,000 riders every week day on the light rail there.

Which of course means that there’s likely 20x that number of people who do NOT use the light rail.

But that latter group still benefits from the reduction in vehicle traffic across the Dallas metro area.

I’m guessing ridership in central Florida would be little different, save perhaps for a modestly higher number due to more seniors.

Dallas metro area that is served by DART has a population of about 2 million.  That’s obviously quite a bit less than the combined populations of west Orlando through Pinellas County.

I hate it when people say our drivers are the worst in the nation because they are mostly transplants!

Dusty-thanks for all of that interesting history.  That makes sense.

So Steve-in light of what you said-then is the price worth it?

Been_There_Done_That - 09 September 2007 05:22 AM

This commuter rail is a boondoggle of epic proportions. Floridians will not stop driving their passenger cars and trucks unless the price of fuel becomes so high that they must carpool. I do not feel as if anyone will ride the train to go back and forth to work.

I have relatives in UK so I have occassion to go there.  They went from Gov owned rail to Privatization and it’s pretty darned good too BUT....The study they ran last year showed even with fuel at $6/ gallon it’s still cheaper to drive an average car to work rather than buy the cheapest fare card for up to even a year.  Not many share rides either just like here.  Now they’ve imposed a fee to enter London after 7am or leave before 6pm of $10 too.  And they are trying to ban the new favorite vehicle the SUV from London...I find that humorous myself.

I would say you’re probably right about light rail not being used alot.  I doubt many would carpool either tho’.  The government would probably have to underwrite the whole thing like they used to do with AMTRAK.  I can’t imagine how many people actually commute from Tampa to Orlando?  That seems rather an odd thing?  I would think a North-South light rail might get more commuter use if it is convenient?

bavarialand - 10 September 2007 11:17 AM

unfortunately, the only way rail will work in Tampa [Florida] is when gas hits $5. a gallon or higher.

Dave

I disagree - price isn’t the issue- the dual income families will pay whatever it takes.  Now if they start rationing again....wow...retirees could sell their ration cards to the richies and pay their taxes or insurance with the profits.

LoriBelle - 10 September 2007 06:05 PM

I am a native; so please help me out here.  If most people here are from up North, why does it work up there & not here?  I don’t get it.

Because the States are tiny with lots of big cities along the seaboard with many thousands commuting to NYC with expensive parking. Most states have high price toll roads and bridges too. These trains are only marginally profitable now and several lines have been dropped all ready.

TA, I’d submit that a light rail corridor between Orlando and Tampa/St Pete would not be primarily for the purpose of going from one end to the other.

Rather, it would be for in-between jumps either way.  Pinellas County and Hillsborough residents would have a corridor to jump counties as needed.

And Polk County folks would be in the middle to jump either east or west depending on job location.