It was never my intent to discuss my personal observations here. However, based on my observations, there is plenty of corruption in the State Judicial System and the legal profession in Florida. So, I agree with the Thomas Jefferson quotes contained in this thread. Put simply, there is a lack of accountability by Circuit Court Judges to the citizens, and this leads to the freehold of and irresponsibility in office by these Judges. I’m not going to discuss my personal experiences here and the statistics are not an effort to convince anyone of corruption or a lack thereof.

What these statistics do indicate is a lack of accountibility of Judges, specifically, and legal professionals in general, to the citizens.  Some intelligent people back in the 1990’s made sure that Floridians in each of the 20 Judicial Circuits would have an opportunity to take control of the State Judiciary when the public became sufficiently knowledgeable about the existing system. The idea was to improve our legal system but it needed to be a local voter initiative.

My purpose here is to educate a few readers that it is well within our grasp to have the authority to fire corrupt or incompetent judges, or those with whom we philosophically disagree if only we in each Judicial Circuit would chose that option. Based on the statistics contained here in this thread, we cannot presently hire them and probably should not have that option, but we sure can fire them if we give ourselves that authority. I’ll go directly into the Constitutional Provision but I first want to see if there is anything else to cover with regard to the current “voter selection” method of selecting and rejecting Circuit Court Judges. Maybe, I’ll open a thread to address the specific issue of merit selection / voter rejection vs. (the present) voter selection method of selecting and retaining Judges, as this thread has become cluttered with irrelevant information.

Hopefully, there are at least a couple of readers of this thread that can see through Socrates’ and Gritshifter’s attempts to detract attention from the truth of this thread. The issue is confusing but I’ll perfect this message as time goes on.

Florida Constitution Section 10 (b) (3) (b) states in part;

After the year 2000, a circuit may initiate the local option for merit selection and retention or the election of circuit judges, whichever is applicable, by filing with the custodian of state records a petition signed by the number of electors equal to at least ten percent of the votes cast in the circuit in the last preceding election in which presidential electors were chosen.

While merit selection and retention precludes the election of Circuit Court Judges, it provides voters with the power to remove them when a majority chose to do so. At present, voters cannot select Judges because the vast majority run unopposed, but this option allows voters to remove them. This is the selection method currently used for Appellate and Supreme Court Justices.

wassup - 21 May 2008 11:17 PM

Hopefully, there are at least a couple of readers of this thread that can see through Socrates’ and Gritshifter’s attempts to detract attention from the truth of this thread. The issue is confusing but I’ll perfect this message as time goes on.

Thank goodness we have wassup to shield us from the lies and implied (but not directly accused) corruption of all nasty evil incumbent judges.  We obviously do not need a reason to vote judges out of office.  We need to vote them out simply because wassup says so.  The simple fact that they have served as judges for more than one term means that they must and should be voted out of office.  Do not bother to think for yourselves, rest assured that wassup will tell you what to think.  Just don’t ask why.

weak signal

gritshifter,
I’m sure you will cheer when I tell you I’m about done with the thread. I’m convinced that merit selection and retention is a preferred method of Circuit Judge selection/rejection in Florida given the circumstances, but I’ve got more to learn about the Judicial Circuit petition process.
Also, I’m not sure if the demographics in the Highlands, Hardee, Polk County area make it the best place to make the first effort. There are more progressive areas in Florida as we all know. I need to look at the other 19 Judicial Circuits and also see what if any groups or PACs support this initiative. Once the dominoes begin to fall however, they will all eventually fall.
Besides, the earliest this could get on a Circuit ballot at this point is 2010, so I don’t think the petition signing process needs to start until next year. Although, it would be easier to do it in an election year.
I may start a new thread solely devoted to the selection method to eliminate the clutter and corruption questions. Thanks for helping me sort out the facts. I’ll wrap this up next, I think.

wassup - 22 May 2008 09:12 PM

gritshifter,
I’m sure you will cheer when I tell you I’m about done with the thread. I’m convinced that merit selection and retention is a preferred method of Circuit Judge selection/rejection in Florida given the circumstances, but I’ve got more to learn about the Judicial Circuit petition process.
Also, I’m not sure if the demographics in the Highlands, Hardee, Polk County area make it the best place to make the first effort. There are more progressive areas in Florida as we all know. I need to look at the other 19 Judicial Circuits and also see what if any groups or PACs support this initiative. Once the dominoes begin to fall however, they will all eventually fall.
Besides, the earliest this could get on a Circuit ballot at this point is 2010, so I don’t think the petition signing process needs to start until next year. Although, it would be easier to do it in an election year.
I may start a new thread solely devoted to the selection method to eliminate the clutter and corruption questions. Thanks for helping me sort out the facts. I’ll wrap this up next, I think.

Maybe you are right about the demographics of Highlands, Hardee and Polk Counties.  We do not blindly accept unsubstantiated rhetoric.  Maybe you can find more suitable audiences that will swallow your political dogma in more “progressive” counties.  We are obviously too backwards and ignorant to understand your ideals here. 

I would suggest that you post your information somewhere that does not allow anyone to question your political agenda.  A public message board will make you support your calls for reform with facts, something you are unable to provide.  Maybe you should create your own message board so that you can delete any post that disagrees with you.  That way you wouldn’t have to bother yourself by actually supporting your argument with actual facts instead of statistics and veiled personal opinions. 

It has been a pleasure helping you “sort out the facts”.

Gritshifter,
If you were not an advocate for maintaining the old system of voter selection of Circuit Court Judges despite the fact that these elections are virtually extinct, I would question your reading comprehension skills, as you seem to have missed the facts. Giving you the benefit of the doubt though I will summarize them shortly. I will say though, the readers of this thread would not have qualified to be on the O.J. jury as I’m sure they are intelligent enough to differentiate the facts from a smooth but baseless defense. The fact is your client is guilty regardless of the eloquence of the defense.

As far as the demographics of the area, that is a consideration with any political action requiring a majority of approval from the voters. The fact is that while there are some local voters who would be receptive to a better way of doing things and the change required, there are also a disproportionate number of individuals who due to a lack of desire or ability to comprehend the issue or simply due to a resistance to change, will not be receptive to certain changes.

When the issue of merit selection/rejection vs. voter selection of Judges was on the ballot, I remember thinking to myself, this is a stupid question, of course I want to be able to vote for who is going to be a Judge. However, I later realized through gathering additional knowledge that in fact I rarely if ever get a chance to vote Judges in or out because they rarely appear on the ballot. There are no elections.

For example, here in the 10th Judicial Circuit this year, there will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 12 seats filled through election but only one choice will be presented to voters in the “primary” election for an open seat. An election where only half of those who participate in the “general” election will vote. The reason, there are no competitors to the incumbents.

The issue here is not whether voters would be denying themselves the opportunity to vote for Judges, because we are only rarely given a choice anyway. The issue would be whether voters want to give themselves the opportunity to remove Judges with whom they are dissatisfied. This is probably one of the greatest fears the Judiciary and legal profession have, to be accountable to citizens. Approval of merit selection/ rejection is the single greatest action residents of Florida can take to rein in the irresponsible behavior currently taking place in our legal system and would be beneficial to all Floridians.

As for my motivation, I am sufficiently motivated to be a part of this change much as others, due to personal experience and loss, advocate various social initiatives.

This thread was started in November.  Only a handful of people have posted in this thread.  To me, this indicates that the majority of readers of this forum are either satisfied with the system the way it is, are just not posting about it, or simply do not care.  I will continue to read your posts wassup but I still have the opinion “if it is not broke, don’t fix it”.

gritshifter - 23 May 2008 02:43 PM

This thread was started in November.  Only a handful of people have posted in this thread.  To me, this indicates that the majority of readers of this forum are either satisfied with the system the way it is, are just not posting about it, or simply do not care.  I will continue to read your posts wassup but I still have the opinion “if it is not broke, don’t fix it”.

Gritshifter,
You may be right that people don’t care, and that’s awfully Jeffersonian of you to make that observation. However, I’m going to finish this thread anyway. As far as “the system not being broken so why fix it,” in terms of having voter selection of Circuit Court Judges, by definition the system has never worked. With rare exception, voters do not now nor have they ever selected their Judges for office or removal.
However, I am personally no more subject to their rulings than I am rulings from Judges in South Africa so that is something to think about.

I think I will discontinue participation in this thread for awhile. I’ve got some other things I need to do. I do like the idea of starting a new thread to express my views and read other views on whether voters in the 10th Judicial Circuit should blaze the trail and be the first Judicial Circuit in Florida to opt for Merit Selection and Retention of Circuit and County Court Judges over the present method of Voter Selection. Maybe I’ll do this in conjuction with a Poll.

If anyone wants to contact me about this subject, please send a PM.

wassup - 23 May 2008 07:14 PM

However, I am personally no more subject to their rulings than I am rulings from Judges in South Africa so that is something to think about.

Yes I agree that is something to think about.  Yet another vague hint about your personal agenda here on this forum.  You refuse to discuss anything personal but continue to drop these little nuggets of information.  Since you have declared that your participation in this thread is over, I wish you well in your future endeavors.  As you depart this thread please keep in mind this Thomas Jefferson quote: “He who knows best knows how little he knows.”.

Gritshifter,
I’ve decided to edit this comment. I had decided to take a break but I’m just not finished yet.

The “bounce the rubble” phase of the voter selection process of Circuit Court Judges is the following:
In this phase of the voter selection process, we are only talking about 6% of incumbent Circuit Court Judges, and 16% of Circuit Court Judgeships up for election, because the remaining are uncontested and the names do not show up on the ballot.

Basically, the phase is that Circuit Court judges are usually elected in the primary election, when less than half of the general election voters participate. The primary election is supposed to be for the selection of Democrats and Republicans to compete against one another in the general election. However, the Judiciary has manipulated this process to include for nonpartisan Judicial elections to take place where voter participation is minimal. Since 1996, through six elections, of almost 1100 Circuit Court Judges, only two seats with incumbents have ever been voted on in the general election when most voters go to the polls, one incumbent won and one incumbent lost. During this time almost, 900 seats bearing incumbents have come up for election, 94% of which were not even contested.

I’ll compare these State of Florida Judicial election statisitics to those here in the 10th Judicial Circuit next.

gritshifter - 24 May 2008 10:34 AM

wassup - 23 May 2008 07:14 PM

However, I am personally no more subject to their rulings than I am rulings from Judges in South Africa so that is something to think about.

Yet another vague hint about your personal agenda here on this forum.

The only agenda I have is to let as many people as possible know that the current method of Circuit Court Judge selection sucks! The lack of accountibility these Judges have to citizens corrupts the entire branch of of State government and the legal profession, and leads to bad laws. “Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.” -Winston Churchill

I also want them to know that we have the power in each Judicial Circuit to correct this deficiency via our existing Constitution.

Wassup -

I was reading through this thread again and was wondering what you meant by the statement “However, I am personally no more subject to their rulings than I am rulings from Judges in South Africa so that is something to think about.” Does this mean that you are not a Floridian or just above the law?  Whats up, wassup?

gritshifter - 28 May 2008 01:51 PM

Wassup -

I was reading through this thread again and was wondering what you meant by the statement “However, I am personally no more subject to their rulings than I am rulings from Judges in South Africa so that is something to think about.” Does this mean that you are not a Floridian or just above the law?  Whats up, wassup?

But to directly address you question, circumstances have temporarily taken me out of the jurisdiction. I’m a long term Florida resident though and do have ties to the area. I’ll get back there soon and on topic next.