Before we go any further with this, let’s stop and think:

Being a fan of the team doesnt mean you have to be a village idiot that blindly supports a horrific deal like this stadium plan.

That’s right - You can love the team, support the team, and yet still be smart enough to refuse handing them $400M of our public money.

The Rays do NOT own the Trop. So while it is not a new or existing “tax” - it is over $400M of public funds. It’s a very sneaky way to present it.

Think of it this way:
The Rays propose to “redevelop” the land your home is on - but - instead of giving the profits to you, the land owner, the team keeps them instead. Does that sound good to you?  Think about it.

I can take Carl Crawford in the 1st round of my fantasy draft and yet I can still judge this plan on it’s merits. It’s a bad deal for the public.  There is no logical way to support this funding scheme.

Why do so some of us struggle with this?

What the Rays are asking for is a total rip off.

It’s absurd.
Seriously, if the team asked you to put on a dress and lipstick - would you do that too?

It also doesn’t mean shooting yourself to make a point.  The Plan is not perfect.  But is a valid starting point for negotiations.

This will be an anchor that will drive business at both ends of downtown.

As far as Yankee fans are concerned, they can all take themselves back to that miserable hellhole of a city as far as I care.  I am not concerned with their opinion.

“This will be an anchor that will drive business at both ends of downtown”

First, you can have an anchor that drives business WITHOUT giving away $400M + to the Rays.

Second, the stadium is designed to capture ALL possible revenue.  That’s what it’s built to do.  It’s not there to boost the other local businesses.  It’s there to maximize the profits for the team. 

Lastly, NO arena or stadium has ever helped the economy as promised. 
You need not look any further than the Trop. 
It sounds good, but it is NOT true.

Thomas - 30 November 2007 03:37 PM

“This will be an anchor that will drive business at both ends of downtown”

First, you can have an anchor that drives business WITHOUT giving away $400M + to the Rays.

Second, the stadium is designed to capture ALL possible revenue.  That’s what it’s built to do.  It’s not there to boost the other local businesses.  It’s there to maximize the profits for the team. 

Lastly, NO arena or stadium has ever helped the economy as promised. 
You need not look any further than the Trop. 
It sounds good, but it is NOT true.

Really?  I offer the following examples:

Coors Field: When the City of Denver selected the site it was perceived as a few blocks too far away; today it is the bookend of mixed-use Lower Downtown (LoDo) and full of residential and retail growth.

Jacobs Field: The new home of the Cleveland Indians, helped bring new life to the Flatlands in Cleveland in 1994.

Camden Yards: Extended downtown Baltimore and revitalized the inner harbor area.

Pac Bell Park: In 1989, it was an underdeveloped area of the South of Market area of San Francisco (SoMa). Today, Pac Bell is a famous SF area landmark in a vital urban district.

PNC Park: The new home of the Pittsburgh Pirates, re-invigorated a Pittsburgh neighborhood when it opened in 2001.

The bottom line is how to you value the economic benefit of the Stadium?  Right now St. Pete has 2 prime locations off the tax rolls and dedicated to baseball.  Al Lang and the Trop.  This plan would return 80+ prime acres to the public tax rolls, while consolidating the baseball interest to just 1 location.

Second, the stadium is designed to capture ALL possible revenue.  That’s what it’s built to do.  It’s not there to boost the other local businesses.  It’s there to maximize the profits for the team.

This is stupid, idiotic thinking.  Look at the New Comiskey Park or any of the cookie cutter stadiums in Phila, New York, Pittsburg, San Diego, Candlestick, Kingdome, and so on for what happens when people think like that.  Once that was common, but then people figured out that stadiums needed to be built into the neighborhood to be successful.

Consider what all of these area have in common:

Yankee Stadium
Fenway
Jacob’s Field
Camden Yards
Great American Ballpark
New Busch Stadium
Wrigley
Safeco Field
Miller Park
Petco
AT&T Park
Coors Field

All of these stadiums are built in to the communities.  All of them drive economic activity for their neighborhoods.  I am not saying that the building of those stadiums were fair, but the argument that a Stadium doesn’t do anything is false.

The bottom line is that Baseball is different than football simply because of the number of games played.  In my home town, Jacob’s Field made sense, but Cleveland got ripped off with Cleveland Browns Stadium, a 400 Million dollar stadium that is used 10 times a year.  The bottom line is that Cleveland just loves football.

I dont understand where you are getting this $400 million figure.  The rays have proposed the following:

250 Million from the sale and future tax revenue of the trop site.  ( I bet they get 100 Million for the land outright) the future tax revenue is about 1/8 of the total tax revenue to be generated at a site that would be otherwise off the books entirely.

60 Million in a sales tax rebate on sales at the new stadium site.  OK this is a bit iffy.

150 Million in team contributions.  Represented as the Rays agreeing to pay 10 million in rent /year for 15 years to pay off city issued construction bonds.  The main issue here is that this doesn’t account for the overall interest or other expenses.

That leaves about 40 Million coming from other sources of the $450 million total.

I should say that this is not how I would structure the deal, but it is a valid starting point for negotiations. 

I would do the deal this way:

200 Million from the sale of the trop and future tax revenue.  This commitment will be capped at $200 million total, not a penny more.  All future tax money from this development should go to retiring Trop debt, and then to the public revenue.

$150 million city issued bonds backed by increased Rays payments of 12.5 Million /Year for 20 years.  the money will be divided each year as follows: Debt Service $10 Million.  City of St. Petersburg - $1 Million, Maintenance and future capital improvements of Stadium - $1.5 Million.  Also, The Rays and MLB should agree that MLB will retire the bond debt if the Rays default over the next 20 years.

50 Million in ticket surcharge.  $1 per ticket*20,000 average attendance*81 home games = $1.6 Million dollars.  Over 20 years that is $48 million dollars.

50 Million in special surcharge of 8% of all taxable items sold at the park.  For instance, an item that is $1 will cost $1.07 with tax and $1.15 after the special surcharge.

15 Million from naming rights, with city approval.

In return the Rays agree to the following:

A lease extension requiring the Rays to play 78 games per year in the City of St. Petersburg until 2057.  (The rest of their current lease + 30 Years)

After 2022, or when ever the bold debt is sold, the rent will be set at 2% of all ticketed revenue until the end of the lease extension.

The Rays would be required to pay for all Future capital expenditures during the lease.

The Rays would pay for any Storm related repairs to the Stadium.

The Rays would be responsible for all cost overruns or design changes.

Do you object to this formula?

Scream,

It sounds nice, but it’s not accurate.  All of this has been studied.  Have a look:

Coors Field: When the City of Denver selected the site it was perceived as a few blocks too far away; today it is the bookend of mixed-use Lower Downtown (LoDo) and full of residential and retail growth.
Incorrect - go read:
http://books.google.com/books?id=vfbFbkbZ3GwC&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=lodo+development+denver+coors+field&source=web&ots=1Hf1ZVnBlb&sig=FME6-yfvmXVS-hcy_2MVN8fGZIU

Jacobs Field: The new home of the Cleveland Indians, helped bring new life to the Flatlands in Cleveland in 1994.

Camden Yards: Extended downtown Baltimore and revitalized the inner harbor area.
Bad deal for the public:
http://books.google.com/books?id=K-OuDxhiXkoC&pg=PA245&lpg=PA245&dq=camden+yards+economic+impact&source=web&ots=Z8zDJ2sga8&sig=LV4LPBTnK--TlMSvkknLuEy0Yxg#PPA246,M1

Pac Bell Park: In 1989, it was an underdeveloped area of the South of Market area of San Francisco (SoMa). Today, Pac Bell is a famous SF area landmark in a vital urban district.
Pac Bell was built with private money.  Also, you don’t know SF very well if you’re calling 4th and King St a “vital urban district”.  It’s a train station and house boats.  You must think an awful lot of that Safeway Grocery store huh…

PNC Park: The new home of the Pittsburgh Pirates, re-invigorated a Pittsburgh neighborhood when it opened in 2001.
http://books.google.com/books?id=CPcD8N8c9tQC&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=pnc+park+public+dollars+private+stadiums+the+battle+over+building+sports+stadiums&source=web&ots=KbjKPqrKLG&sig=FtTo-DggQ-G5pYvkWZWKethj_yE#PPA167,M1
Also, it should be noted the Pirates and the Steelers were granted the development rights to the surrounding area. So it’s possible the worst deal of all time.  The people who proposed/approved it should be in prison.

The bottom line is how to you value the economic benefit of the Stadium? 
How about in dollars.  That would be a pretty good way to measure the economic benefit dont you think…

Right now St. Pete has 2 prime locations off the tax rolls and dedicated to baseball.  Al Lang and the Trop.  This plan would return 80+ prime acres to the public tax rolls, while consolidating the baseball interest to just 1 location.
And then hand all the money from the “tax rolls” to the team.  Brilliant.

This is stupid, idiotic thinking.
Do you really think that stadiums and arenas are not specifically designed to capture every possible dollar ?!?!  Are you on glue??

All of them drive economic activity for their neighborhoods.
Actually, they all depleat the economic activity.  This is a fact Scream… you can go read it:
http://www.thesportjournal.org/2002Journal/Vol5-No1/studies.htm
http://www.news.uiuc.edu/news/04/1117stadiums.html
I could list links for hours… these are PhDs, University Studies - unbiased reviews. 

I am not saying that the building of those stadiums were fair, but the argument that a Stadium doesn’t do anything is false.
It does accomplish one thing, the owners make a huge increase in margins.

I dont understand where you are getting this $400 million figure.  The rays have proposed the following: 250 Million from the sale and future tax revenue of the trop site. 
It’s NOT their land.  Again, how about if we redevelop your house and then give the profit to the Rays… sound good?

150 Million in team contributions.  Represented as the Rays agreeing to pay 10 million in rent /year for 15 years to pay off city issued construction bonds.
That’s so generous of them.  Agreeing to pay rent on the building that they keep ALL the revenue from.  That’s a swell deal.

I would do the deal this way:
Except you’re not writing the proposal.  The Rays are.  It’s laughable.

There is no sane way to authorize this financing plan. 
There are no economic benefits in publicly financed stadiums. 

If you want to say “I love baseball so I’ll dress up in a skirt and wave pom poms no matter how absurd the financing scheme is” then do that.  But don’t tout these fictional benefits.  They don’t exist.

Thomas - 30 November 2007 06:01 PM

Scream,
I am not going to argue every example, just the ones I have personally seen.

Pac Bell Park: In 1989, it was an underdeveloped area of the South of Market area of San Francisco (SoMa). Today, Pac Bell is a famous SF area landmark in a vital urban district.
Pac Bell was built with private money.  Also, you don’t know SF very well if you’re calling 4th and King St a “vital urban district”.  It’s a train station and house boats.  You must think an awful lot of that Safeway Grocery store huh…

I have been to San Francisco before and after Pac Bell was built.  Before, there was no way I was going to SoMa.  After, I did.

Right now St. Pete has 2 prime locations off the tax rolls and dedicated to baseball.  Al Lang and the Trop.  This plan would return 80+ prime acres to the public tax rolls, while consolidating the baseball interest to just 1 location.
And then hand all the money from the “tax rolls” to the team.  Brilliant.

That is not what I am suggesting and you know that!  That is not what the team placed on the table either.  Get your facts straight on what is being proposed.

This is stupid, idiotic thinking.
Do you really think that stadiums and arenas are not specifically designed to capture every possible dollar ?!?!  Are you on glue??

sure inside.  and what is wrong with that?  All I am saying is that the best stadiums are inclusive to their communities.  The Trop fails at that, while simultaneously wasting a lot of space.  care to argue the point further?  then load some facts into your pop gun, cause you are shooting blanks.

All of them drive economic activity for their neighborhoods.


I am not saying that the building of those stadiums were fair, but the argument that a Stadium doesn’t do anything is false.
It does accomplish one thing, the owners make a huge increase in margins.

I read the same studies.  I find them to be biased to a fault.  If they were true, cities would not be stepping up for expansion franchises.  And yet, they are.  All i am saying is that if you have a particular Ax to grind you don’t have to look far to find “studies” and academic justification for your position.

I dont understand where you are getting this $400 million figure.  The rays have proposed the following: 250 Million from the sale and future tax revenue of the trop site. 
It’s NOT their land.  Again, how about if we redevelop your house and then give the profit to the Rays… sound good?

it isn’t your land either.  The Rays have a intrest in the Trop because it was negotiated to them.  The Rays will not sell the Trop, the city will. Jeeze… the city would have no ability to develop this site unless the Rays allowed them too.

150 Million in team contributions.  Represented as the Rays agreeing to pay 10 million in rent /year for 15 years to pay off city issued construction bonds.
That’s so generous of them.  Agreeing to pay rent on the building that they keep ALL the revenue from.  That’s a swell deal.

again, you have an extremely loose relationship with the facts.  The Rays never said they were getting ALL the revenue.

I would do the deal this way:
Except you’re not writing the proposal.  The Rays are.  It’s laughable.

it is called negotiations.  They want to negotiate, I say, OK let’s negotiate.  That is all.

There is no sane way to authorize this financing plan. 
There are no economic benefits in publicly financed stadiums. 

If you want to say “I love baseball so I’ll dress up in a skirt and wave pom poms no matter how absurd the financing scheme is” then do that.  But don’t tout these fictional benefits.  They don’t exist.

Ok. Let’s think about this. 

This is really a value judgement.  I think there are elements to the Rays deal which have merit, and some that should be negotiated.  The point is that this is worth listening too.  if the final deal does not work then so be it.

We could go back and forth disputing things (like the fact that PacBell is in China Basin/Mission Bay, NOT in SoMa) but this sentence sums it all up pretty nicely:

The truth is Cleveland would be economically dead without it’s sports teams

You’re a victim of your own short sightedness.

Between the funds used to build the facilities and the sweetheart lease terms the city has dumped about a billion dollars into the hands of the local sports teams.

They could have easily spent that money in otherways to generate a more powerful and well balanced economy. 

For example they could have built the RnR Hall of Fame 15 times for what they paid in stadiums / arenas.  These types of structures do much more to boost the economy - they are not designed to be “one stop” destinations.  IE - Browns fans come, tailgate, spend all their money at the stadium then leave. 

The economy would be exponentially better off if they had used the funds wisely instead of foolishly squandering them on the local teams.

That’s what real Scream -

Thomas - 30 November 2007 07:47 PM

We could go back and forth disputing things (like the fact that PacBell is in China Basin/Mission Bay, NOT in SoMa) but this sentence sums it all up pretty nicely:

The truth is Cleveland would be economically dead without it’s sports teams

You’re a victim of your own short sightedness.

Between the funds used to build the facilities and the sweetheart lease terms the city has dumped about a billion dollars into the hands of the local sports teams.

They could have easily spent that money in otherways to generate a more powerful and well balanced economy. 

For example they could have built the RnR Hall of Fame 15 times for what they paid in stadiums / arenas.  These types of structures do much more to boost the economy - they are not designed to be “one stop” destinations.  IE - Browns fans come, tailgate, spend all their money at the stadium then leave. 

The economy would be exponentially better off if they had used the funds wisely instead of foolishly squandering them on the local teams.

That’s what real Scream -

I humbly disagree with your opinion of the value of professional sports. However, you do have a point about the politicians and so called leaders letting us down.  The truth is that Cleveland spent too much time and energy on the Big Steel and Big Auto gravy train that the central city itself died.  The politicians up there are famous for thinking only of themselves and their own self interest rather than the greater needs of the area as a whole.  As a result, I, a both and bred Ohio boy, had to move here to make a living.

As far as the City of Cleveland is concerned, if you could figure out a way to get thousands of White people to understand that it is OK to live around Black and Puerto Ricans, and that they won’t bite, then we can solved Cleveland’s problems tomorrow.  Say what you will, but the Browns, Cavs and Indians seems to be the only things which unites the whole area.  (The buckeyes do too, but they don’t count as they play their games in Columbus.) You are correct to say that that is sad, but that is the way it is.

I also disagree with what the City’s options were at the time.  Cleveland wasn’t on the hook for the stadiums.  The Cigarette and Achohol drinkers of cuyahoga county are.  They funded all three stadiums with “Sin taxes” which did not exist before the stadiums were built.  Cuyahoga county is in fine shape in the outer ring suburbs.  It wasn’t like Cleveland had a choice between spending the $1.4 billion on the stadiums or spending the money elsewhere.  If they didn’t build the stadiums then there would have been nothing for the city at all.

Don’t get me started on the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.  (150 million to build the freaking thing and where are the inductions?  New Freaking York!!!!)

In our case, this is also true.  If the deal isn’t done, it is not like the city will all of the sudden have $450 million laying around.  Things will simply continue as the are until 2027, when all bets will be off.

Right now, Cleveland is in my past.  St. Pete is my future.  My children will be Rays, Lightning, and Buccaneer fans.  (I draw the line at Ohio State.  Sorry, Scarlet and Grey will be in my families blood for generations.  Our hatred for all things Michigan for even longer.) I have adopted my new teams too, as long as they don’t play my first teams.

When I moved, I knew I had to go to a Major League City.  I choose St. Pete because of the climate, the atmosphere, and it sports team.  I stand on my belief that this is our chance to stand up like a big league city and be reasonable.  And reasonable people at least listen and are willing to negotiate.  We both want what’s best for the city, and it’s people.  I simply think that we are better off if the Rays are included.

Good afternoon,

“When I moved, I knew I had to go to a Major League City.  I choose St. Pete because of the climate, the atmosphere, and it sports team.  I stand on my belief that this is our chance to stand up like a big league city and be reasonable.  And reasonable people at least listen and are willing to negotiate.  We both want what’s best for the city, and it’s people.  I simply think that we are better off if the Rays are included.”

We’re not in danger of losing the Rays, if that’s what you’re implying by “if the Rays are included”.
The lease at the Trop is ironclad.  They are locked in.  We don’t have to be hassled by the “build this stadium or we’re leaving” threat.

I completely disagree with the notion that we “stand up like a big league city”. 
The connotation is that to be a “big league city” you have to put on a dress and lipstick and do WHATEVER the Rays ask of you.  And that’s crap.

I love the team, I love MLB, always have always will.  BUT, that does not mean I’m some mindless lemming.

IF the team the was actually willing to negotiate in good faith to form a partnership, I would be all for it.  BUT we would both be pretty foolish to think the Rays are going to sit down and make a deal that is good for anyone but them.

It is really hard to see how the taxpayers will receive any benefit from the deal being proposed by the Rays.

If the Trop site is really a gold-mine for developers, its value is only likely to increase over time from what it is now in a weak economy.  There will be a one-time benefit to taxpayers from its sale—it makes little sense to devote all of that revenue to a private business.  The $250 million or whatever is being discussed now could become $400 million in 20 years at the expiration of the Ray’s lease and instead of giving it to a private company now, it could be used for any number of public purposes then.  Also, the idea that the development of the Trop site is going to generate tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in excess taxes in the short term that can be used to subsidize a private baseball company makes no sense—anyone proposing to put any kind of substantial development that creates employment and below-market housing opportunities is going to demand substantial tax breaks to do so to say nothing of the infrastructure costs that would need to be absorbed by the city.  And added to that is the cost of retiring the tens of millions of dollars of bonds still owe for the Trop.

If the city wants to use the Al Lang site to encourage more commerce in the downtown areas, there are many ways to do that other than spend $450 million on a baseball stadium, a solution which is not only extraordinarily expensive but which will have limited seasonal use and exacerbate existing traffic and parking problems.  Rather than asking for proposals for the Trop site, a responsible first step for the city would be to seek proposals for the Al Lang site.  The fact that the city has misled citizens over a period of several months over intentions for the Al Lang site does not give one a good feeling about the process at work here.

The bottom line is that the Rays owners want out of their lease and they are proposing a deal which requires no up-front cash and no risk to them.  It makes perfect sense for them to make a proposal like this which is 100% in their interest.  Of course, normally when someone wants out of a long-term lease, they are required to buy it out with up-front cash.  In this case, logic is turned on its head in that the Rays want to break their lease and have the taxpayers pay for it!  It remains to be seen if city leaders will represent the interests of the votes and taxpayers or those of the out-of-town owners of the Rays.

I love the team and the players, but a new stadium just doesn’t make sense as it’s being proposed UNLESS the Rays pay for the whole thing.  I’m from Manhattan, and I went to Yankee Stadium about 50 times before becoming a Rays season ticket holder. 

In the Bronx, the “baseball cathedral” doesn’t uplift the area; rather, it provides some minimum wage jobs for local residents who could never afford to actually buy a ticket because of the prices.  The area is rough, even though the stadium has been there for decades.  The team is the most profitable and most willing to spend in the league.  So when is that stadium going to help the neighborhood?

Why would we think that St. Pete would do so much better?  Sure, the artist renditions look great, and everyone loves a new building.  But what happens in Year 2 when the team is still in 4th or last place, attendance is still around 8,000 per game or less because no one wants to A) sit in 90 degree heat or B) walk 20 minutes from a downtown parking lot to the park?

If the Rays want to improve their profitability and image through off-the-field expenditures, they should build parking garages and a public transportation system connecting Tampa & Clearwater with downtown St. Pete. 

Oh, and I realize they already signed Cliff Floyd, but wouldn’t bringing Luis Gonzalez home have been a better choice for a lefthanded 4th outfielder?

The reason the Rays are asking for a taxpayer-financed stadium is because they can.  You can be sure that any business, no matter how profitable, will always request a public subsidy if they can do so without being laughed at.  Even if the new stadium with its huge public subsidy only increases the profits of the Rays by a small amount, it is still worth it for the team to pursue it as that option is a lot less expensive than trying to increase profits by fielding a competitive team.  Producing pretty artistic renderings is an inexpensive way to influence politicians and sway public opinion.

If you figure that the primary business of the Rays is to produce a competitive professional baseball team, they would have to be judged to be about the worst in their business—and that conclusion is based on very clear and convincing statistics.  Yet St. Petersburg city officials seem to view the Rays as brilliant urban planners.  Maybe city officials believe that bad baseball leads to great city planning.

The only good thing about this whole debacle is that the city taxpayers will have to approve it—or at least that is how it looks right now.  But you can bet if the election is lost or it looks like it will be lost, that city leaders will look for another way to subsdize the Rays.