Okay, many don’t think Jeff Garcia is a top 10 QB right now in the NFL.  ESPN Is conducting a poll to see what Fans think of the NFL QBs.  You have to rank five. I suggest you rank Garcia first and four no names as 2-5.  Say Vinnie Testaverde, JOey Harrington, Matt Schaub, and Clemens (The Jets QB).  Maybe we can influence it so that Garcia is in the top 5?  Just having fun…

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/rank?versionId=2&listId=23

Atfter voting, Garcia is ranked 12th and has almost the lowest number of #1 votes of any NFL QB.  And people wonder why he is not in the pro-bowl - like I said, not many outside of Tampa think anything of him.  Show him your support!

So let me get this straight.  Since you have an inflated idea of how Garcia should rank against other QBs you are asking us to go in and skew a poll to hopefully match your opinion?  Interesting.  How about this?  We should also vote for McCown and Gradkowski too.  Then everyone would believe we have three of the top ten QBs.  Then we could trade our back-ups for some extra first round picks. 

I’m happy where the team is, but Garcia is a system QB and nothing else.  He plays well in the system but as shown by his time in Detroit and Cleveland he can’t walk onto any team and make it better.  This list is for the best QB and Garcia may be in the top half but is not in the top ten.

Hey, I was just responding to some posted complaints that Garcia is a top 10 QB and why is he not in a pro bowl?  You just answered the question yourself then - I am just giving those people an opportunity to express themselves.  However, I see Garcia as a QB who plays the west coast offense very well. 

Just like I see Manning playing a traditional offense well.  I don’t see Manning playing a west coast offense that well - he is not very patient throwing the short passes all the time.  When he becomes impatient that is when he throws an interception (or more than one).

To each his own.  My personal belief is that Garcia probably does not belong in the pro bowl, but in the QB poor NFC I am not sure if there are many more QBs ahead of him besides Romo, Farve, and potentially Hasselback.  McNabb has been awful this year as has Eli Manning (many NY’ers have suffered a 4 INT day from him this year).  St. Louis’s QB has been wildly up and down, Kitna has not been setting anyone’s world on fire lately, and Campbell - don’t make me laugh. 

The AFC has a number of very good QBs. Romo, Mannning, Rivers, Andeson, Palmer (not so much this year but I truly believe he is a better QB), Rothensberger, and maybe Garrard (I say maybe, because he has played well almost every game this year, but not amazingly better than Garcia).

With the above I am placing (honestly) Garcia about 10th.  I don’t believe he is much better than that.  However, that is better than the rest of the nation believes.  I don’t believe in Vince Young. People tell me he wins games but his stats are horrible.  I believe it is the rest of the team picking up his slack - yes he makes big plays, but he lacks any consistancy right now.

Oh, by the way Paul, this is only starters you can vote for - not other QBs.  Besides, there is no evidence to support the other Tampa QBs right now besides a good performance in two gamaes by McCown.  He may be viable for the future, but right now, no one knows more than he looked good two weeks straight (with some errors).

Paul M. - 19 December 2007 09:38 AM

So let me get this straight.  Since you have an inflated idea of how Garcia should rank against other QBs you are asking us to go in and skew a poll to hopefully match your opinion?  Interesting.  How about this?  We should also vote for McCown and Gradkowski too.  Then everyone would believe we have three of the top ten QBs.  Then we could trade our back-ups for some extra first round picks. 

I’m happy where the team is, but Garcia is a system QB and nothing else.  He plays well in the system but as shown by his time in Detroit and Cleveland he can’t walk onto any team and make it better.  This list is for the best QB and Garcia may be in the top half but is not in the top ten.

What’s your list look like?

Rowdie - 19 December 2007 10:01 AM

What’s your list look like?

Here’s my list.  It’s not in order but includes all those I feel are a better overall QB than Garcia this year.  My criteria is a QB that could be put in the most differant kind of systems and situations (weather, 2-minute drill, down by multiple TDs, etc) and still produce well.  I didn’t lean to heavily on mobility because I think a running QB is the most overrated trait you can have.

1. Brady
2. Manning, Peyton
3. Farve
4. Romo
5. Palmer
6. Brees
7. Rothlesberger
8. Anderson
9. Hassleback
10. Schaub would be higher if he didn’t get hurt
11. Cutler
12. Garcia

If you want to remove Schaub I wouldn’t argue based solely on his limited games this year.  I also have Garcia ahead of McNabb who I think is very overrated.  Vince Young is the new Vick.  He’ll win enough games with his feet, but never win it all.  E. Manning can’t keep it together mentally.  Edwards is someone to watch for the future and Warner didn’t do horrible this year, but he is at the end of the line.

Where I go different is with Schuab and Cutler.  For this year alone, neither have done as much for different reasons.  As you mentioned, when you play a limited amount, it really does not matter.  Schuab was out a lot this year.  Most of the time he played as well as Garcia if not slightly better, but fact of the matter is if you are missing five or more games then your durability is a big questionmark.

In Cutler’s case, he has thrown an awful lot of interceptions this year with 12.  He does have more upside than Garcia, but his play this year is not better.  Percentage completion virtually identical.  Yards per pass within a half a yard of each other.  Number of TDs, okay, Cutler has more (7).  However, the Bucs have more running TDs (Graham has 10 on his own, while Denver’s top two runners have a total of 5) - so I don’t really think that makes much of a difference.

You do have an arguement for Cutler ahead, but the same arguement stands for Garcia this year since overall his stats are about the same, and his NFL rating compared to Cutler shows that (Garcia is about 4 points higher).  He ranks about 10th unless you count a part time starter and someone else who is performing at the same level above him.  I don’t see any other way to look at it.

By the way, I don’t disagree about Edwards and Warner, although Warner definately did not outplay Garcia this year.  However, I think people should watch Jacksonville’s Garrard.  He does play well. Getting rid of Leftwich was a great move I have to say.

Paul M. - 19 December 2007 12:40 PM

Rowdie - 19 December 2007 10:01 AM

What’s your list look like?

Here’s my list.  It’s not in order but includes all those I feel are a better overall QB than Garcia this year.  My criteria is a QB that could be put in the most differant kind of systems and situations (weather, 2-minute drill, down by multiple TDs, etc) and still produce well.  I didn’t lean to heavily on mobility because I think a running QB is the most overrated trait you can have.

1. Brady
2. Manning, Peyton
3. Farve
4. Romo
5. Palmer
6. Brees
7. Rothlesberger
8. Anderson
9. Hassleback
10. Schaub would be higher if he didn’t get hurt
11. Cutler
12. Garcia

If you want to remove Schaub I wouldn’t argue based solely on his limited games this year.  I also have Garcia ahead of McNabb who I think is very overrated.  Vince Young is the new Vick.  He’ll win enough games with his feet, but never win it all.  E. Manning can’t keep it together mentally.  Edwards is someone to watch for the future and Warner didn’t do horrible this year, but he is at the end of the line.

Real hard to swallow that schwabby take. Well and some of the others as well. Far as I’m concerned after that first four it’s a toss up. You could put Garcia in there anywhere between 5 and who’s to say? 15 and not be too far out of line.

Anderson? I must be missing something on that one. Buddy is totally average as far as I can tell.

Rowdie - 27 December 2007 12:21 PM

Anderson? I must be missing something on that one. Buddy is totally average as far as I can tell.

Pay attention to some AFC games and you’ll see how good Anderson was this year.  Of course this list was before he had a bad game against the Bengals this week, but even then his numbers were really good this year.  Think about it… the Browns might make the playoffs with the worse defense in the league.  If a team does that it has to have a good QB.

Anderson has a passer rating of 64 over the last 4 games. Your facts are a little off it wasn’t just the Bengals game that was less than stellar. Even the Browns are surrounded by rumors of trading him to Miami possibly. If he was that good he wouldnt even be mentioned in the rumors columns. Especially after the run of bad QBs in Cleveland.
Schaub does not even belong on this list as he is unproven through a whole year.
I am not so sure Cutler belongs above Garcia either,with a passer rating of 86 over the last 4 games. Garcia has a passer rating of 91 over the last 4 games.
I feel Garcia is better than Cutler.

Garcia has 13 TDs in 13 starts.

I’m pretty sure there’s never been a pro bowl QB with that low a ratio of TDs to games played.

He’s been sturdy enough this season.

But he played a schedule that was in the bottom of the league (25th).  Had he faced two or three more teams with legit playoff strength, he’d likely have a couple less touchdowns and a couple more interceptions, making him kinda Mediocre at best.

Props to him being part of dragging this team kicking and screaming through a 4th place schedule to nine wins.

Now the Bucs are left with about the 20th pick in the draft and a first place schedule next season.

Tough for many fans to accept that for the longterm, it would have been preferable for the Bucs to win six or seven games this year and finish 3rd or 4th in the division.

Ah well....I guess at the end of the day, finishing in the final eight (if they beat NY Giants) is a commendable season and fans can then pack their gear away for next August.

Steve,
You make a point but forget that TDs are scored two ways - running and passing. Overall, the Bucs are not lacking in TDs as they have run it in over 10 times as well.  Not a high powered offense by any means, but not a terrible one either.

Tom Brady he is not.  But the team is scoring.  As I said, he probably is not a pro bowl QB but to say he is average is undervaluing what he brings to the team.  I wonder why he was so successful last year while the heralded starter in Phildelphia led them to a losing/.500 record unitl getting hurt? This is two years in a row he has played better than the other QBs on the roster.  The 49ers still regret four years later letting him go.  His only failures were on questionable teams - Detroit and Cleveland.  Detroit still cannot get above .500 and Cleveland is finally playing better with an improved defense as well as good QB playing.

Also, I have never seen an NFL team tank to play for a better draft pick.  There is no time like the present, and I doubt any NFL coach is playing for a draft pick any year.  Time will tell if the Bucs tank next year or not.  I have no idea although the tendency for #1 division teams is to do worse the following year since all the top teams play each other and someone has to lose each week.

AcuraT - 29 December 2007 11:29 AM

Cleveland is finally playing better with an improved defense as well as good QB playing.

I just have to insert the fact that the Browns have the worse ranked defense in the league this year.  That’s why I have Anderson ahead of Garcia in my rankings for this year.

It is all relative - I believe they do not rank last in the most important stat, which is points allowed, which they were improved this year.  True, their defense is still not that good.  Also true, I agree that Cleveland’s QB is better than Garcia (as I agreed above). 

I just choose to disagree and disbelieve that McNabb, Campbell, or Vince Young are better than Garcia.  Or for that matter Schaub (who does not play much) is a clearly better QB either.  We just disagree still at the bottom of the top 10, which neither of us can prove outright is correct. I have no issue with that.

My example here will be Vinnie Testaverde. He’ll retire this week 6th in total passing yards, attempts, and completions. 6 is a mighty high number for a journeyman QB like Vinnie. He didn’t earn any rings and he didn’t consistently win the big games. Granted, the difference between him and Dan Marino is Marino never had the teams around him. But, ranking todays names, even with what’s gone on this season :

1. Peyton. the greatest QB to ever strap on a wrist playbook.
2. Brady : a top 4 greatest QB.
3. McNabb : How quickly people forget what this man has done with his legs and his arm and how much success this otherwise average team has had.
4. Roethlisberger: An amazing QB with good field vision, unselfish attitude, and the escapability of Garcia.
5. Favre : doesnt rank higher because he loses a lot of games and has to come from behind to win games he was the cause of loss.
6. Garcia : headfirst slides for first downs, scrambles for time, and makes pinpoint passes in the clutch.
7. Derek Anderson : SOn of a gun would be ranked higher with more years under his belt, but he’s done an incredible job in cleveland
8. Carson Palmer : fell off this year, but he’s still a clutch performer, good for late tds
9. Jake Delhoumme: Stud.has been a 4 or 5 win difference for the panthers.
10. Vince Young : he’ll be top 5 in this category in a few more years.

P.S. Any QB that throws 5 picks (even if he does bring his team back from it) and fumbles away a playoff Dubya, doesn’t deserve to be in a ‘clutch QB’ category. So, once Tony Romo can overcome and win some tough games, then, he’ll jump on my list. I love the guy, don’t get me wrong, but he just doesn’t make it on there right now. Neither does Schaub (good QB tho) Cutler(overrated)

jvnootz - 30 December 2007 11:26 AM

My example here will be Vinnie Testaverde. He’ll retire this week 6th in total passing yards, attempts, and completions. 6 is a mighty high number for a journeyman QB like Vinnie. He didn’t earn any rings and he didn’t consistently win the big games. Granted, the difference between him and Dan Marino is Marino never had the teams around him. But, ranking todays names, even with what’s gone on this season :

1. Peyton. the greatest QB to ever strap on a wrist playbook.
2. Brady : a top 4 greatest QB.
3. McNabb : How quickly people forget what this man has done with his legs and his arm and how much success this otherwise average team has had.
4. Roethlisberger: An amazing QB with good field vision, unselfish attitude, and the escapability of Garcia.
5. Favre : doesnt rank higher because he loses a lot of games and has to come from behind to win games he was the cause of loss.
6. Garcia : headfirst slides for first downs, scrambles for time, and makes pinpoint passes in the clutch.
7. Derek Anderson : SOn of a gun would be ranked higher with more years under his belt, but he’s done an incredible job in cleveland
8. Carson Palmer : fell off this year, but he’s still a clutch performer, good for late tds
9. Jake Delhoumme: Stud.has been a 4 or 5 win difference for the panthers.
10. Vince Young : he’ll be top 5 in this category in a few more years.

I’m confused here. Is this a list for their careers or just this year.

If it’s for this year than:
McNabb didn’t do much this year because he can’t stay healthy
Derek Anderson has performed better than Garcia because there hasn’t been a defense to help him
Jake Delhomme hasn’t played most of the year
Vince Young is and will be average at best. Just like Vick he won’t ever be good enough to win it all
Where is Drew Brees?
Tony Romo just led his team to at least a 13-3 record with a #1 seed
Warner had a good year this year for a under-performing team
Where is Matt Hassleback?
even I’m starting to get impressed with the Jacksonville QB

If this is for careers than:
Delhomme has taken a team to the Super Bowl
Drew Brees helped the Saints go from a Joke to the NFC Championship game
Garcia has never shown he can be a champion and has to have a good supporting cast to win
Marc Bulger had a bad year this year, but has been one of the best the last few years
Carson Palmer is far superior to Garcia
Favre has carried a franchise to two Super Bowls (1 win) and has dominated again this year
Again Vince Young is overrated
Kurt Warner has won multiple MVPs and a Super Bowl win and runner-up
We seem to forget the Seattle QB on every list

I’m not sure what you list was supposed to be showing, but I think it’s flawed either way you look at it. The Vince Young thing gets me every time.