This list was for career and this year. It’s more of a ‘feeling’ type of list. Vince Young doesn’t have enough experience so I understand your frustration with him on these lists, however, when he was healthy the last two years, he has been the difference in the Titans wins. He makes plays with his legs and he has an uncanny ability to make the necessary (not necessarily BIG play, but the one that gets you the first). Marc Bulger is a system quarterback, with two Hall of Fame Caliber recievers, not to mention an RB who produces 150 muli purpose yards. I said Clutch. Carson Palmer is a better pure passer than garcia but not a better clutch performer. Sorry. Favre led two super bowl teams on ahman green’s coattails and has nearly COST more games than he’s won. Hassellback bores me. Thats the reason he doesnt make my list. Jurt Warner, was a fun qb to watch but not a clutch performer. He had the same recievers as Bulger IN THEIR PRIME. he’s got two more good recievers in Arizona and he’s turnover prone.  Drew Brees isn’t clutch, or he would’ve taken that very capable Saints team all the way, but he is a great QB, poor guy’s underrated. What he’s done with those recievers is a feat in itself. 
I didn’t understand your arguement for Anderson, where you saying he’s ‘only’ playing good because he has to or Garcia plays better because his defense makes him look better? or what? I didnt get it. But I stick by my ten and ‘da homme’ just doesn’t move up on the list because he had to sit out this year. Maybe he could’ve been a difference in the Tampa games. He certainly was before.
Lastly, and again, McNabb is everything (and less) than Vince Young will be. Vince Young will be a top 5 QB for years to come and a top 3 QB once Manning and Brady are out. Quote that.

jvnootz - 30 December 2007 06:13 PM

This list was for career and this year. It’s more of a ‘feeling’ type of list. Vince Young doesn’t have enough experience so I understand your frustration with him on these lists, however, when he was healthy the last two years, he has been the difference in the Titans wins. He makes plays with his legs and he has an uncanny ability to make the necessary (not necessarily BIG play, but the one that gets you the first). Marc Bulger is a system quarterback, with two Hall of Fame Caliber recievers, not to mention an RB who produces 150 muli purpose yards. I said Clutch. Carson Palmer is a better pure passer than Garcia but not a better clutch performer. Sorry. Favre led two super bowl teams on ahman green’s coattails and has nearly COST more games than he’s won. Hassellback bores me. Thats the reason he doesn’t make my list. Jurt Warner, was a fun qb to watch but not a clutch performer. He had the same recievers as Bulger IN THEIR PRIME. he’s got two more good receivers in Arizona and he’s turnover prone. Drew Brees isn’t clutch, or he would’ve taken that very capable Saints team all the way, but he is a great QB, poor guy’s underrated. What he’s done with those recievers is a feat in itself.
I didn’t understand your arguement for Anderson, where you saying he’s ‘only’ playing good because he has to or Garcia plays better because his defense makes him look better? or what? I didnt get it. But I stick by my ten and ‘da homme’ just doesn’t move up on the list because he had to sit out this year. Maybe he could’ve been a difference in the Tampa games. He certainly was before.
Lastly, and again, McNabb is everything (and less) than Vince Young will be. Vince Young will be a top 5 QB for years to come and a top 3 QB once Manning and Brady are out. Quote that.

I’m confused about a couple things. First, I agree Manning is the top one or two QB this year, but why is he not punished for having great WRs and a great RB and Bulger and Warner are? Is it because that would mess up your list? When you said Favre road Ahman Greens coatails to two Super Bowls did you mean a University of Nebraska RB gave him advice or what? You see Green wasn’t drafted until the 1998 draft by the Seahawks which was after the Packers went to two straight Super Bowls. He wouldn’t be in the backfield with Favre for a few more years. Dorsey Levens was in the backfield during those games and I’ve never heard Levens’ name spoken among the great RBs. The reason the defense matters when comparing Anderson and Garcia is simple. The defense helps keep the Bucs in all games. Anderson doesn’t have that advantage so every win is because he led the offense to victory in spite of the bad defense. You also eliminated Hassleback because he bores you. I’ll take a good accurate QB that takes teams to playoffs and a Super Bowl over a QB that is exciting because he does a head first slide for a 6 yard gain.

With all of your awesome analysis I can only say… I doubt Vince Young will amount to anything. He’ll be a coach killer just like Vick and every other QB that wins games with his legs. FYI… I’m not a McNabb fan at all, but he started producing when he learned a QB’s job is to THROW the ball. If you haven’t noticed yet, the people of this forum require you to have you facts right. Come back in three years and remind us of how good Young will be when an offensive coordinator learns to use his skills. That’s what the Vick supporters always said to justify why he never “met his potential”.

Got me bud. Youre right. It was Dorsey Levens. All pro, pro bowl, 1800 multi purprose, 12 td Levens. And Super bowl MVP Desmond Howard. Just for fun. I looked this up. It took FOREVER to find it.
Table 1. Top 10 quarterbacks at comebacks since 1996
Rank Quarterback Wins Losses
1 Jake Plummer 19 28
2 Peyton Manning 19 29
2 Vinny Testaverde 19 29
4 Tom Brady 13 8
5 Jon Kitna 15 23
6 Kerry Collins 17 30
7 Donovan McNabb 12 15
8 Marc Bulger 10 5
9 Jake Delhomme 10 12
9 Jay Fiedler 10 12

Table 2. Bottom 10 quarterbacks at comebacks since 1996
Rank Quarterback Wins Losses
153 Tim Rattay 1 10
154 Kelly Holcomb 3 13
155 Danny Kanell 1 11
156 Patrick Ramsey 0 11
157 Tony Banks 5 18
158 Jeff George 2 14
159 KURT WARNER 5 19
160 Brian Griese 4 20
161 Steve Beuerlein 5 23
162 Mark Brunell 14 39

And looking at Vince Young, he ‘unofficially’ has four 4th quarter comebacks IN THE NFL, including the record comeback for a rookie (21 points with under ten minutes left). Those four comebacks already give him a better ratio (and nearly as many comebacks) as Kurt Warner. And who does Vince Young have? My list STILL stacks up by my criteria.But we’re all entitled to our opinions, just as you were earlier this season about the Bucs demise. And garcia’s failing, and Gruden’s head on the chopping block. ((Shrug)) Guess nobody’s perfect. Except of course, the Patriots.

Career Stats

Pass Yards, TOTAL touchdowns, Interceptions,
Garcia 22825 174 77
Hassellback 22333 147 84

both qb’s stats are from 1999 on and garcia’s played 20 games less than hasselback.

Fun site. . ..
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_1955_The_2007_All-Douched_Team.html

jvnootz - 30 December 2007 11:26 AM

My example here will be Vinnie Testaverde. He’ll retire this week 6th in total passing yards, attempts, and completions. 6 is a mighty high number for a journeyman QB like Vinnie. He didn’t earn any rings and he didn’t consistently win the big games.

I think your own quote debates your use of these stats without any extra input from me needed.

jvnootz - 30 December 2007 07:52 PM

But we’re all entitled to our opinions, just as you were earlier this season about the Bucs demise. And garcia’s failing, and Gruden’s head on the chopping block. ((Shrug)) Guess nobody’s perfect. Except of course, the Patriots.

I REMEMBER YOU! Gosh Paul, I knew your name looked familiar, but since the Bucs have been winning, I haven’t heard from you. I frequent the forum a lot and I like to go back and look at past posts to see who was right and who was wrong, and no wonder I haven’t heard from you....YOU WERE WRONG. You dissed Garcia, you dissed Gruden, and Allen, you didn’t like gaines (playing pretty well for a rookie, but by the 4th week you wanted to get rid of him), and you weren’t too happy with this year’s draft class. Hmm. Welcome back out of hibernation! I’m sure you’re torn. Bucs won the division, but you were terribly wrong, whatever shall you do? I know, become a Green Bay/Seattle fan! Whoever goes further right?

jvnootz - 30 December 2007 08:29 PM

I REMEMBER YOU! Gosh Paul, I knew your name looked familiar, but since the Bucs have been winning, I haven’t heard from you. I frequent the forum a lot and I like to go back and look at past posts to see who was right and who was wrong, and no wonder I haven’t heard from you....YOU WERE WRONG. You dissed Garcia, you dissed Gruden, and Allen, you didn’t like gaines (playing pretty well for a rookie, but by the 4th week you wanted to get rid of him), and you weren’t too happy with this year’s draft class. Hmm. Welcome back out of hibernation! I’m sure you’re torn. Bucs won the division, but you were terribly wrong, whatever shall you do? I know, become a Green Bay/Seattle fan! Whoever goes further right?

You need to reread those posts. I was happy the Bucs went Defense with their first pick. I disliked the Carter signing and letting D. White leave. I liked our draft because for once Allen and Gruden paid attention to the defensive side of the ball. You seem to be confused that I repeatedly said we wouldn’t return to consistent winning until the Bucs started to develop young players which they have done. I thought it was a mistake (in the long term) to bring in Garcia and not develop a younger QB that could be around for multiple years instead of a bandage to last a season or two. You may say I was wrong, but to be honest nothing I said has been disproved. I already wrote a post eating crow about how much better this year was than I thought it would be. I’ll eat more crow if we go to or win a Super Bowl. You obviously don’t read enough posts or you would have caught all of this. I have been on the forum, but I’m a much bigger fan of discussing personnel moves rather than breaking down each game. So you will here from me more in the off-season or when debating such topics as this one. But it’s nice to know I’m famous or maybe infamous...haha

Paul M. - 30 December 2007 08:27 PM

jvnootz - 30 December 2007 07:52 PM

But we’re all entitled to our opinions, just as you were earlier this season about the Bucs demise. And garcia’s failing, and Gruden’s head on the chopping block. ((Shrug)) Guess nobody’s perfect. Except of course, the Patriots.

I already stated previously that I underestimated how good the team would be this year.  But I would like to make sure we don’t forget everything I said.  I also said we wouldn’t be able to truely return to the glory days until Gruden and Allen start to develop the younger players and focused on our defense.  Which they started to do… and look where we are.  I also said that the signing of Garcia could give us false hope because we would get better, but Garcia would be gone by the time the team really was ready to be great and we would be searching for a new QB when we should be winning titles.  The team needs a young QB to develop that will be ready to be great at the same time the team is.  I’m happy for our team, but I stand by my previous statements.

I think Gruden is working on developing players.  A good example is Luke McCown, a QB Cleveland gave up on after two years as a fourth round draft pick for a sixth round Bucs draft pick.  So far it has taken some time but he appears to be developing into a potential starting QB this year.  Although he has made a few mistakes, he has shown to have a good arm, good accuracy, and a good ability to move.  His QB raing for the year is a decent 87.4 and even has had a QB rating above 108 in his last start.  Despite two terrible mistakes against the Saints he drove them down the field to a wining TD with no time left.

I would say that we don’t know yet if the team is in desparate QB straights or not if Garcia goes down.  I will say that the team has a better backup on the bench probably than any other time in its history.  The only QB tandem better that they have had is probably Steve Young and Vinnie Testaverde (and with Hugh Culverhouse’s inablity to put any money into the team, they never had a chance to win).  Gruden may yet go out and get a QB like “Quinn” from Cleveland, but he and Allen should have the opportunity to do something with the team after proving just about everyone wrong this year.

I don’t get some of these takes.  A defense is better so the qb is worse?  That makes no sense. Then we got someone playing the IF IF IF game and then making a conclusion based on that instead of what actually happened.  If you were smart you wouldn’t be an idiot.

Hasselbeck vs Garcia numbers where very interesting.

McNabb #3?  certainly that was meant to cue discussion and can’t possibly be an honest assessment.

1. Peyton. the greatest QB to ever strap on a wrist playbook.
2. Brady : a top 4 greatest QB.
3. McNabb : How quickly people forget what this man has done with his legs and his arm and how much success this otherwise average team has had.
4. Roethlisberger: An amazing QB with good field vision, unselfish attitude, and the escapability of Garcia.
5. Favre : doesnt rank higher because he loses a lot of games and has to come from behind to win games he was the cause of loss.
6. Garcia : headfirst slides for first downs, scrambles for time, and makes pinpoint passes in the clutch.
7. Derek Anderson : SOn of a gun would be ranked higher with more years under his belt, but he’s done an incredible job in cleveland
8. Carson Palmer : fell off this year, but he’s still a clutch performer, good for late tds
9. Jake Delhoumme: Stud.has been a 4 or 5 win difference for the panthers.
10. Vince Young : he’ll be top 5 in this category in a few more years.

McNabb had his teams on the brink 3 or 4 years in a row. He’s kept them close in games, he has not personally LOST a lot of games. His TD-INT ratio has been stellar, and he makes plays with his feet. I really like all the guys I’ve got up there. I also stand by Vince Young especially after seeing how many comebacks he’s had AS A ROOKIE-SOPHOMORE. The guys gonna be a stud.

Paul M. - 30 December 2007 06:44 PM

jvnootz - 30 December 2007 06:13 PM

Lastly, and again, McNabb is everything (and less) than Vince Young will be. Vince Young will be a top 5 QB for years to come and a top 3 QB once Manning and Brady are out. Quote that.

I doubt Vince Young will amount to anything. He’ll be a coach killer just like Vick and every other QB that wins games with his legs. FYI… I’m not a McNabb fan at all, but he started producing when he learned a QB’s job is to THROW the ball.

I just had to update this. Like everyone else I love when I’m proved right. Norm Chow was fired today as Tennessee’s Offensive Coordinator. Vince Young will get every offensive coordinator and a few coaches fired before he leaves this league. All of this will happen because no one will figure out how to tap that “amazing potential”.

Hey Paul, I don’t disagree.  Question though, didn’t Vince Young score poorly at the NFL combines on accuracy as well as intellgience?  I thoguht I remember he did not do so well there in either of those areas.  I thought it would hurt his draft potential but was surprised when it did not so much.

Maybe there is something to those combines?