Who knows… it could be that under Russ Grimm‘s Larry Zierlein‘s tutelage Mahan turns into a world-class guard or center. Good coaching has that effect and Mahan could do a lot worse as a lineman than going to the Steelers.
I remember back in the good old days we had good coaching. But I guess we can’t even claim that now. And of course that has nothing to do with Gruden or Allen, right? Ask Joe Barry or Rod Marinelli if they would recommend a coach go to the Bucs. If you remember the Gruden/Allen tandem prevented both those coaches from being promoted by other teams. So I doubt a “good” coach really wants to go to a team if they know they will be held back by Gruden/Allen. But what do I know… I’m just a bandwagon fan that only sticks around when the times are good, right?
I remember back in the good old days we had good coaching. But I guess we can’t even claim that now. And of course that has nothing to do with Gruden or Allen, right? Ask Joe Barry or Rod Marinelli if they would recommend a coach go to the Bucs. If you remember the Gruden/Allen tandem prevented both those coaches from being promoted by other teams. So I doubt a “good” coach really wants to go to a team if they know they will be held back by Gruden/Allen. But what do I know… I’m just a bandwagon fan that only sticks around when the times are good, right?
Marinelli and Barry were under contract. G/A kept them as long as they could, because they are good coaches. They left for career advancement reasons, not because of G/A.
The Bucs have been raped of good coaches during the Gruden years, and it’s hard for a team to overcome that.........it’s frustrating to say the least, but when a good coach’s contract is up, they get bigger job offers that pay more money. If you want to blame Gruden and Allen for that, then I don’t know what to tell you.
I just wish some fans were more informed before they start their unlucid rhetoric.
I remember Both Marinelli and Barry both saying that “They” did make a “commitment” to the bucs organization. And that honoring a Commitment was the right thing to do. Marinelli taught Accountability all through the years as a coach in Tampa.
I believe that when you ask permission to go to another team Management has the right to say NO. Get A Grip Paul .
Here is where you are missing the point. Under Dungy and McKay our good coaches were given the opportunity to move on to bigger and better things, such as Lovie and Edwards. But what we had in return are many more coaches that were lined up to join our team. But since G/A will stand in the way of their progression, no one is there waiting when the coaches contracts do run out. As much as you all think I’m out to get G/A, you are out there protecting two guys that have destroyed this franchise. Sure you can say Gruden won a Super Bowl for our city (with McKay and Dungy’s players), but what has Allen done? I guess I’ll wait until next year’s draft when we again have a top 5 pick and maybe we will be discussing our new coach/GM.
But since G/A will stand in the way of their progression, no one is there waiting when the coaches contracts do run out.
Were you born in a glue factory? lol
Name one coach that left the Bucs, who wasn’t enticed by another team to an equivalent or higher position? Even fired Bucs defensive backs coach Greg Burns has been hired to coach the same position with Kansas State! Yep, nobody wants a Bucs coach.
But since G/A will stand in the way of their progression, no one is there waiting when the coaches contracts do run out.
Were you born in a glue factory? lol
Name one coach that left the Bucs, who wasn’t enticed by another team to an equivalent or higher position? Even fired Bucs defensive backs coach Greg Burns has been hired to coach the same position with Kansas State! Yep, nobody wants a Bucs coach.
That’s not what I meant. I meant that since no other coaches want to work for G/A, there isn’t a good new coach waiting to replace the ones that leave.
Example, Lovie Smith left (because Dungy and McKay didn’t hold people back) and we were able to bring in a good coach to replace him. Now that coach leaves for Detroit (after being held back for a year) and to replace him we get some nobody. Same thing happened when Edwards left compared to the replacements we’ve had for Tomlin.
The Bucs have been raped of good coaches during the Gruden years, and it’s hard for a team to overcome that.........it’s frustrating to say the least, but when a good coach’s contract is up, they get bigger job offers that pay more money. If you want to blame Gruden and Allen for that, then I don’t know what to tell you.
BadBuc, you said it above. When Dungy and MacKay were here they treated their coaches well. Which sometimes meant having to let them interview and possibly move on to other teams. But in return for that good treatment, the team always had some new great coach following in behind the ones that left. But now look at the team. A great coach leaves and we don’t get another great coach. Look at the Buc/Dungy coaching tree. Now look at the Gruden coaching tree. The only former assistant that I think ever did anything was Callahan. And he only had the one good year (where he took Gruden’s Raider team to the SB) and is now coaching at Nebraska.
G/A need to understand that if you don’t treat your people good, then good people won’t want to work with you.
Are you looking through Rose Colored Glasses? You must be blinded by time. Dungy had a great coaching tree but he also had some real under achievers. How soon you forget while under his leadership the Bucs came up short year in and year out. Offensively we couldn’t buy a good coach back then. I think you’ll have a hard time selling me on this coaching theory that you have.Or maybe you just think of Defensive Coaches. Get out your Bucs history book and tell me about all those Great coaches we had on the offensive side of the ball. I believe last years coaches that replaced Tomlin and Marinelli were not a perfect fit. They were polar opposite in personalities than what has worked here for years. This is not to say they are bad coaches though. It all starts with coaching though.We do agree on this point.
I believe Gruden has an appeal but so does Kiffin, they will attract quality coaches !
I don’t have rose colored glasses. I didn’t forget the Mike Shula era. Dungy was too loyal to his underachievers. But where I see the real issue is on the defensive side of the ball. We all know that’s how we won the SB. We needed a good offensive coaching staff and if we all remember Dungy tried to hire Tom Moore a couple of times (for those that don’t know he is the O’ coordinator for Indy). The issue is the Bucs use to be great at finding 3rd, 4th, and 5th rounders that would develop and produce for this team. The reason for this is the defensive coaches could flat out teach the game. Now G/A still draft all the defensive players in the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th rounds, but no one is there to develop them.
Some people may forget that I never said Dungy should have stayed nor did I say he could have won a championship here in Tampa. I believe he took this team to the highest he could. We needed a change. Gruden is a great coach, I never doubted that either. The problem lies in the fact that Gruden is a mad scientist. When he was given a batch of good players (which we had when we got here along with some solid moves by McKay) he can do amazing things. But when he has a puppett in the front office that can’t/won’t tell him NO, he is too intrigued by all these old vets. If the ownership could have been strong enough to say “we’re keeping McKay to pick the players and Gruden is in charge of coaching”, the team would have stayed at a high level. But ownership instead tried to please Gruden and gave him a puppett. Now Gruden has no self-control and there isn’t anyone that will tell him NO.
I think you have lost track of how the NFL has changed over last ten years or so. Ten years ago it was easy to draft a 4th , 5th or 6th rounder and bring him up in your system on the D side. The cover two wasn’t the most sought after scheme back then. But that has changed in a major way . The 3-4 defense is now a defense in which you can pick up those great 4th,5th,6th round picks and turn them into something. there are so many teams doing there own version of the cover 2 that its not always easy to pick up that sideline to sideline players that we need. I believe these coaches we picked up this year will be heads above what we had last we had last year.Barry Excluded.
You think so fondly of Mckay. I look at the mess he left us with cap wise. If Mckay stayed I don’t know what our situation would be like but neither do you. I think Allen sometimes pays too much for other players.I believe we often times have a had a good player that we should have concentrated on keeping,but instead let them slip away. The grass isn’t always greener on the other side! This I will give you.
Paul M. Warm and fuzzy memories of McKay. No. The Glazers let him go to our rival team and McKay I will say showed little class on the way out the door. McKay hasn’t really done any “major” improvements since he has been in Atlanta . I think we can do just as well with Allen.
The times are a changin! Only time will tell if G/A are right or wrong.
When McKay left we were in no where near the salary cap hell that the 49ers, Ravens, Titans, or even Allen’s Raiders. We were over the cap, but if you remember a few years ago everyone was over the cap. It may be harder to find great players late, but other teams seem to do it no matter what scheme they have.
And about McKay’s results in Atlanta. As soon as Mike Vick is gone (I would bet this is his last year there, but that would be another thread) McKay will have far better results.
And I would love some clarification on the “McKay I will say showed little class on the way out the door” comment. Maybe I missed something, but I think he did really well for a guy that had an organization basically toss him to the side even though he brought them from the gutter to the trophy. What did I miss?
McKay’s problem in Atlanta is Vick ! Paul M you do have a different look at things. Wow!!!! In our times we brought up Dewayne White well he went back to Marinelli,and probably wanted to a guarantee that he would be the starter no one knows for sure. Mahan being paid too much! , Buenning still with us , Torrie Cox alt to pro bowl with special teams this year after his 1st on IR.the same year I believe Simms and D White. Jermaine Phillips,Will Allen, A Bryant, Paris Warren, Alex Smith.Zemaitis, Stovall,Gradkowski. Thats not to mention some undrafted players like E Graham one of our top ST players. I think its easy to say nothing is happening And you think its all a one way street with McKay.McKay started packing his bags after the Glazers got Gruden in a trade.Which by the way I believe it was just too costly in Top Draft Picks. The one thing I think you fail to acknowledge is its the Glazers Team!!! It was ok for the front office to move on to bigger and better things under G/A ,right . Look around the league. All those people were wished well after their contracts expired. Raheem Morris came Back this year to coach “at Harvard” or Kiffin Univ. Morris should have taken over for Tomlin but a few things happened a little out of sequence and he spent a season as a Defensive Coordinator in the college ranks instead.
Paul M You just seem a little too negative about G/A, but I will give you this at least its interesting.
The issue is the Bucs use to be great at finding 3rd, 4th, and 5th rounders that would develop and produce for this team. The reason for this is the defensive coaches could flat out teach the game. Now G/A still draft all the defensive players in the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th rounds, but no one is there to develop them.
The grass roots for finding tallent is the scouts. No coach can take a dud, and turn him into a star. There has to be a star inside the player to begin with, and it’s the scouts that bring them to light. Coaches teach football, but they can’t teach tallent. If the Bucs aren’t finding tallent in the rounds like you say, then it’s because of the scouts, not the coaches.
If the Bucs aren’t finding tallent in the rounds like you say, then it’s because of the scouts, not the coaches.
I agree that scouts play a huge role in finding these talented players. Teams such as the Bears and Seahawks find these diamonds in the rough. Oh wait… those teams are run by personnel guys that worked for McKay, but also left under the G/A regime.
So let me get this straight. I’m a pessimist, because I hold the GM and Coach responsible for finding good scouts, coaches, and players. But G/A have failed in all aspects of this. What role do these guys actually perform well? Stop making excuses and look at the fact that G/A are not victims of the lack of coaches, players, and scouts, but instead are the reason we don’t have any good people in this organization.
BadBuc, you aren’t Jon Gruden’s brother Jay are you?...lol
