Thank you, absolutely fantastic.
Dave

I find it interesting that there are no challenges from Paul & Sub., or other.

bavarialand - 14 April 2009 07:31 AM

PaulDHarvill - 12 April 2009 10:37 PM

bavarialand - 12 April 2009 08:29 AM

the number of people who say they are a “survivor” of the death camps is now greater than the number who were supposedly killed in the camps.
amazing.

and yes, i have read the book [s] and in 1987 and 1994 i was in Germany and visited Auschwitz and Sobibor. it is amazing at how much new interpretive construction has been taking place at these camps.


Dave

Dave (aka Bavaria Land):

You obviously don’t know what you are writing about.

You are clearly a member of the National Socialists Party.

You don’t even know which country Auschwitz and Sobibor are located in.

Can you provide what is your primary text on the Holocaust?

Paul

yes, i know they are in Poland.
bus tours from Germany, 1987 still part of iron curtain thank god for the U.S. Navy.

yes, http://www.nsm88.com - 20+ years.

the rise and fall of the third Reich - William l. shire.

the center for holocaust studies, they will mail you pamphlets if you ask.
also the Simon wiesenthal center.

now, i am not a idiot. i do know that some people were systematically killed.
i just don’t agree on the total number, i also do not think all the camps were “Death” camps. most were factories. and it is also a fact that most of the prisoners starved to death as a result of allied bombing.

it is amazing at how the world fixates on Adolf for the 6 million but at the same time they ignore the U.S.S.R. that has admitted to killing 20+ million in the gulag camps.

Dave.

Dave,

You are indeed in part accurate on much that you wrote above. 

It is generally accepted by all the data made available since the fall of Nazi Germany that some five to six million Jews were exterminated by various means, including gassing, shooting, starvation, exposure to the elements.  That is far more than “some” people.  Most though did not starve to death according to all the scholarly works done—especially as more data comes forward from the Nazi archives, e.g. when East Germany became part of Germany due to the Soviet failure as a nation. 

There were death camps and concentration camps in Nazi Germany.  Some were in part factories—if one includes the many small camps, then even more factories attached to the camps.  Yet the plan conceived and executed was to determine how much nutrition a human being needs for a specific period of time.  And then feed that little until one’s essentially free slave labor dies of malnutrition or they are exterminated by gassing and shooting before they die of starvation.  Even in the midst of oncoming defeat, rather than keep the slave labor alive and working, they were exterminated by the thousands a day in the various camps.

The world’s “fixation” on the Hilter and the Nazis’ death machinery is that it was the first time that such mass murder occurred on such a scale and in such methods.  And that Hitler was focused on the biological extinction of a people, the Jews.  Regardless of theological, political, or other forms of assimilation into the German Volk.  Of course, he also had in mind the extermination of other peoples too. 

The USSR under Stalin is when by far most of the mass murder occurred there.  I’ve read that the estimate is more like 30 million human beings.  I don’t recall in my readings on these atrocities what the estimates are from mass starvation to mass immediate murder, etc.  But Stalin was not nearly as systematic as Hitler.  Not to say that Stalin was not systematic.  He surely did intend to cause the deaths of millions. 

Paul

More extractions from “Religion and the Origins of the Death Camps:  A Psychoanalytic Interpretation” by Professor Richard L. Rubenstein in the 1992 edition of his book “After Auschwitz”. 

Resentment against Christianity and its enforced displacement of the Teutonic gods has been a significant motif in German life and letters since the Napoleonic wars....

Modern German nationalism was first aroused during the War of Liberation against the French, 1806-1813....

Christianity, regarded as a product and imposition of a foreign Latin culture, was resented in influential German circles.  Nazism grew in part out of this aspect of German cultural history. 

Although Hitler was willing to use the the churches for his own purposes, he was committed to their ultimate elimination. 

Shortly after his assumption of power, he revealed his intentions to his associate, Hermann Rauschning:  “Neither of the denominations - Catholic or Protestant, they are both the same - has any future left, at least not for the Germans.  Fascism may perhaps have its peace with the Church in God’s name.  I will do it too.  Why not?  But that won’t stop me stamping out Christianity in Germany, root and branch.  One is either a Christians or a German. You can’t be both”.

Although by no means an anti-Semite, Hegel titled one of his earliest writings, “Is Judea Then the Fatherland of the Teutons?” Hegel complains that Christianity has emptied Valhalla of its gods and forced the German people to accept Jewish gods and fables in place of their own.

This observation presupposes the concept of Volksreligion in which the religion, mythology, and social organization of an ethnic community (Volk) are regarded as a single organic unity.  When any element in the constitution of the Volk is displaced or discarded, the unity of the whole is broken.

Such a breach in Volk unity occurred when the indigenous Teutonic gods were displaced by the foreign gods and myths of the Jews.  For Hegel, the gods are an objectification of the inner nature of that people.  By rejecting their ancestral gods, the Germans were in the deepest sense rejecting themselves. 

The young Hegel did not carry his own logic to its ultimate conclusion in action. 

He was, however, followed by others, such as Erich Ludendorff and Alfred Rosenberg, who were more prepared than than he to enter that realm. 

They concluded that German alienation and self-estrangement could be terminated only by the end of the Jewish gods of Christianity.

Next posting will be regarding the Deicide accusation against the Jews.

Here is an intersting article siting lots and lots of population figures for Jews in Europe and their migrations to other countries before the war.

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history/browse_thread/thread/8579930c9f63b557

“Jewish migration to the Soviet Union, therefore, reduces the number of Jews within the sphere of German occupation to around 3-1/2 million, approximately 3,450,000. From these should be deducted those Jews living in neutral European countries who escaped the consequences of the war.”

There were not 6 million killed, and certainly none by gassing.  If extermination was the goal, obviouly starvation & exposure to elements was the cheapest and quickest method, don’t you agree?
Don’t you ever wonder why it is that there were small children among the surivors?
If extermination was the goal wouldn’t it be easy to just take them as fast as they are born and toss them in the trash?

The problem with this is that the media gets people’s emotions so riled up that they fail to use some simple logic.  The left brain becomes so overwhelmed that it cannot function.

Paul the article on religion was very interesting.  I didn’t know that.  I see this as a big part of the reason for the war.  The Zionists just could not let religious control get away from them.

For a fuller understaning of this you should watch this 3 part video.  (Somewhere I think there is a 4th part) It goes to the roots of Judeo-Christianity, which came out of Egypt with Moses and followers of Pharaoh Akhenaton and his brand of monotheism.
http://www.redicecreations.com/webcast/2009/03mar/RIW-090301.html

OhZone,

Pau D. Harvill

Well Paul, How do you really know that your “documentation” is not the one that is composed of lies?

Do you realize that vested interests depend upon and profit from the stories that you think are the true stories?

If they are really true, why would they insist that no one, under penalty of the law must ever question them?  Deny that they are true and you go to jail.  What do you think about that?

Don’t you believe that the real truth can stand on its own regardless of what anyone says?

What would happen if you learned that the stories you put your faith in are really lies?

OhZone - 28 April 2009 02:44 PM

Well Paul, How do you really know that your “documentation” is not the one that is composed of lies?

Do you realize that vested interests depend upon and profit from the stories that you think are the true stories?

If they are really true, why would they insist that no one, under penalty of the law must ever question them?  Deny that they are true and you go to jail.  What do you think about that?

Don’t you believe that the real truth can stand on its own regardless of what anyone says?

What would happen if you learned that the stories you put your faith in are really lies?

I’ll keep it simple:

I have read many such books.  Most have an incredible high number of footnotes citing other, diverse sources and information. 

I am already familiar with such writings.  Have you forgotten that I was indoctrinated in the same educational system that you were?  I saw the same movies etc.  I was as much a believer as you are.  The difference is that I have a inquisitive mind.  I ask “Why & How” a lot. I am curious about thechnical aspects of situations ...such as the alleged gassings, the time it takes to carry out various tasks and practicality and efficiency of methods.  These traits I apply to all areas of my life.

Paul, don’t you think it would be wise to read the other side of the story?

From the website I mentioned - above:

“According to Chambers Encyclopedia the total number of Jews living in pre-war Europe was 6,500,000. Quite clearly, this would mean that almost the entire number were
exterminated.”

I have to ask, “what is it that you do not understand about these numbers?”

That article goes on to state the numbers of Jews who went to safer areas, millions of them.
Here are some videos explaining the propaganda used to ramp up our war fever.  You do realize, don’t you, that in war the first casualty is The Truth?

http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/

The author of the videos wrote to professors asking them to rebut the info in them.  They would not.
He tried to put ads in newspapers asking for rebuttals.  They ads were denied.  Why?

From the horses; mouths:

“No gassing took place in any camp on German soil."(Nazi Hunter Simon Wisenthal, in his Books and Bookmen, p. 5)

“We Jews regard our race as superior to all humanity, and look forward, not to its ultimate union with other races, but to its triumph over them.” (Goldwin Smith, Jewish Professor of Modern History at Oxford University, October, 1981)

“. . . purposely overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at Auschwitz-Birkenau by many times their true numbers. With the end of communism in Poland and the former Soviet Union, official sat the Auschwitz museum have meticulously lowered the casualty figures in line with the estimates of historians who, for years, have insisted that between one and 1 1/2 million people perished at Auschwitz-Birkenau - 80 - 90% of them Jews. (The Breitbard Document, as published by the Simon Wiesenthal Center )

“We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own.” (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).

“There is scarcely an event in modern history that cannot be traced to the Jews. We Jews today, are nothing else but the world’s seducers, its destroyer’s, its incendiaries.” (Jewish Writer, Oscar Levy, The World Significance of the Russian Revolution).

“Soviet Russia is a dictatorship of Jewry.” Arno Mayer (Jewish Professor at Princeton, “Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?")

Between the years 250 CE and 1948 CE - a period of 1,700 years - Jews have experienced more than eighty expulsions from various countries in Europe - an average of nearly one expulsion every twenty-one years. Jews were expelled from England, France, Austria, Germany, Lithuania, Spain, Portugal, Bohemia, Moravia and seventy-one other countries, including areas of the U.S.
Here is a list in chronological order.  Rather shocking what happened.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/HistoryJewishPersecution/

So why were/are they so hated?  Maybe it is just their attitude, as per above quotes by them.

I have already posted this one, but in case you missed it here it is again.

The Canadian Intelligence Service - Excerpt from September 1952 issue - submitted by James Moorhouse. - The following speech was given by Rabbi Emanuel Rabinovich before a special meeting of the Emergency Council of European Rabbis in Budapest, Hungary, January 12, 1952

“The goal for which we have striven so concertedly for three thousand years is at last within our reach, and because its fulfillment is so apparent, it behooves us to increase our efforts and our caution tenfold. I can safely promise you that before ten years have passed, our race will take its rightful place in the world, with every Jew a king and every Gentile a slave. We will openly reveal our identity with the races of Asia and Africa. I can state with assurance that the last generation of white children is now being born.

“Our control Commissions will, in the interest of peace and wiping out our interracial tensions, forbid the whites to mate with white. The white woman must cohabit with members of the dark races, the white men with black women. Thus the white race will disappear, for mixing the dark with white means the end of the white man, and our most dangerous enemy will become only a memory. We shall embark upon an era of ten thousand years of peace and plenty, the Pax Judaica, and our race will rule undisputed over the world. Our superior intelligence will easily enable us to retain mastery over a world of dark people.”

This next is an excerpt from the same speech, found in the book, The World’s Troublemakers. [See resources ] “THE STRUGGLE AGAINST THE GENTILES” Speaking of the Third World War, Rabbi Rabinovich is publicly reported to have addressed a special meeting of Rabbis in Budapest on January 12, 1952 thus:
“… This war will end for all time the struggle against the Gentiles… Our race will rule undisputed over the world… And so, with vision of world victory before you, go back to your countries and intensify your good work, until that approaching day when Israel will reveal herself in all her glorious destiny as the Light of the World”.

OhZone - 30 April 2009 06:11 PM

I am already familiar with such writings.  Have you forgotten that I was indoctrinated in the same educational system that you were?  I saw the same movies etc.  I was as much a believer as you are.  The difference is that I have a inquisitive mind.  I ask “Why & How” a lot. I am curious about thechnical aspects of situations ...such as the alleged gassings, the time it takes to carry out various tasks and practicality and efficiency of methods.  These traits I apply to all areas of my life.

Paul, don’t you think it would be wise to read the other side of the story?

From the website I mentioned - above:

“According to Chambers Encyclopedia the total number of Jews living in pre-war Europe was 6,500,000. Quite clearly, this would mean that almost the entire number were
exterminated.”

I have to ask, “what is it that you do not understand about these numbers?”

That article goes on to state the numbers of Jews who went to safer areas, millions of them.
Here are some videos explaining the propaganda used to ramp up our war fever.  You do realize, don’t you, that in war the first casualty is The Truth?

http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/

The author of the videos wrote to professors asking them to rebut the info in them.  They would not.
He tried to put ads in newspapers asking for rebuttals.  They ads were denied.  Why?

From the horses; mouths:

“No gassing took place in any camp on German soil."(Nazi Hunter Simon Wisenthal, in his Books and Bookmen, p. 5)

“We Jews regard our race as superior to all humanity, and look forward, not to its ultimate union with other races, but to its triumph over them.” (Goldwin Smith, Jewish Professor of Modern History at Oxford University, October, 1981)

“. . . purposely overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at Auschwitz-Birkenau by many times their true numbers. With the end of communism in Poland and the former Soviet Union, official sat the Auschwitz museum have meticulously lowered the casualty figures in line with the estimates of historians who, for years, have insisted that between one and 1 1/2 million people perished at Auschwitz-Birkenau - 80 - 90% of them Jews. (The Breitbard Document, as published by the Simon Wiesenthal Center )

“We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own.” (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).

“There is scarcely an event in modern history that cannot be traced to the Jews. We Jews today, are nothing else but the world’s seducers, its destroyer’s, its incendiaries.” (Jewish Writer, Oscar Levy, The World Significance of the Russian Revolution).

“Soviet Russia is a dictatorship of Jewry.” Arno Mayer (Jewish Professor at Princeton, “Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?")

Between the years 250 CE and 1948 CE - a period of 1,700 years - Jews have experienced more than eighty expulsions from various countries in Europe - an average of nearly one expulsion every twenty-one years. Jews were expelled from England, France, Austria, Germany, Lithuania, Spain, Portugal, Bohemia, Moravia and seventy-one other countries, including areas of the U.S.
Here is a list in chronological order.  Rather shocking what happened.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/HistoryJewishPersecution/

So why were/are they so hated?  Maybe it is just their attitude, as per above quotes by them.

I have already posted this one, but in case you missed it here it is again.

The Canadian Intelligence Service - Excerpt from September 1952 issue - submitted by James Moorhouse. - The following speech was given by Rabbi Emanuel Rabinovich before a special meeting of the Emergency Council of European Rabbis in Budapest, Hungary, January 12, 1952

“The goal for which we have striven so concertedly for three thousand years is at last within our reach, and because its fulfillment is so apparent, it behooves us to increase our efforts and our caution tenfold. I can safely promise you that before ten years have passed, our race will take its rightful place in the world, with every Jew a king and every Gentile a slave. We will openly reveal our identity with the races of Asia and Africa. I can state with assurance that the last generation of white children is now being born.

“Our control Commissions will, in the interest of peace and wiping out our interracial tensions, forbid the whites to mate with white. The white woman must cohabit with members of the dark races, the white men with black women. Thus the white race will disappear, for mixing the dark with white means the end of the white man, and our most dangerous enemy will become only a memory. We shall embark upon an era of ten thousand years of peace and plenty, the Pax Judaica, and our race will rule undisputed over the world. Our superior intelligence will easily enable us to retain mastery over a world of dark people.”

This next is an excerpt from the same speech, found in the book, The World’s Troublemakers. [See resources ] “THE STRUGGLE AGAINST THE GENTILES” Speaking of the Third World War, Rabbi Rabinovich is publicly reported to have addressed a special meeting of Rabbis in Budapest on January 12, 1952 thus:
“… This war will end for all time the struggle against the Gentiles… Our race will rule undisputed over the world… And so, with vision of world victory before you, go back to your countries and intensify your good work, until that approaching day when Israel will reveal herself in all her glorious destiny as the Light of the World”.

One of my uncles was a member of the KKK, John Birch Society and was an officer with the American Party of Florida. 

They are simply attempting to justify their own prejudicies

OhZone - 30 April 2009 06:11 PM

“According to Chambers Encyclopedia the total number of Jews living in pre-war Europe was 6,500,000. 

From OhZone:

“No gassing took place in any camp on German soil."(Nazi Hunter Simon Wisenthal, in his Books and Bookmen, p. 5)

That is correct.  The mass gassings took place on German occupied soil, e.g. Poland in particular.  And it was the Nazis, their supporters and their employees who accomplished the mass gassings, mass murders, which was but one major aspect of the Holocaust.

See how you distort the historical record?

From OhZone:

Rabbi Rabinovich is publicly reported to have addressed a special meeting of Rabbis in Budapest on January 12, 1952 thus:

“… This war will end for all time the struggle against the Gentiles… Our race will rule undisputed over the world… And so, with vision of world victory before you, go back to your countries and intensify your good work, until that approaching day when Israel will reveal herself in all her glorious destiny as the Light of the World”.

Key words:  “publicly reported”. 

Rabbi Rabinovich?  If he even said these words, he was a delusional or end times Rabbi.  Common sense tells that the millions of Jews surviving the Holocaust don’t compare in sheer numbers to some seven billion human beings alive today. 

PaulDHarvill - 27 April 2009 07:45 PM

OhZone,

We have met on other message boards.

There is so much documentation regarding what really happened in the Holocaust that your assertions are but lies upon lies upon lies.

Do you have any shame?

Pau D. Harvill

Don’t bother trying to argue with OhZone, Bavarialand, et. al. It’s like trying to reason with a drunk… you simply cannot win.

My advice is to simply ignore their posts.

Pax,

Yes Paul, we have met on the message boards - I thought it was here, but maybe it was the old SPTimes board.

Pre-War Germany = 1939-1945.
Paul what points of the writers “denying:” the holocaust do you disagree with?

Have you really given a fair look at all the evidence?
Just saying that they are wrong does not make it so.
You do believe in being a fair judge don’t you?

My argument at this point is simply the population numbers -vs.- the numbers allegedly killed.
More from:  http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history/msg/c636f5c0e5469920?

“IMPOSSIBLE BIRTH RATE
Indisputable evidence is also provided by the post-war world Jewish
population statistics.
The World Almanac of 1938 gives the number of Jews
in the world as 16,588,259.
But after the war, the New York Times, February
22nd, 1948 placed the number of Jews in the world at a
minimum of 15,600,000
and a maximum of 18,700,000.
Quite obviously, these figures make it
impossible for the number of Jewish war-time casualties to be measured in
anything but thousands.
15-1/2 million in 1938 minus the alleged six million
leaves nine million; (in the WORLD)
the New York Times figures would mean, therefore, that
the world’s Jews produced seven million births, almost doubling their
numbers, in the space of ten years.”

Maybe you can find numbers that differ?

So you think that R.Rabinovich was a radical?
Is what he was saying coming to pass or not?
In just a few years white folk in the US will be a minority. 
The Southwest US is already at -50%.
Do you find that in any way scary?

Sub, maybe the reason you cannot win is because you only give opinions and not valid arguments.