OhZone,

Pau D. Harvill

Well Paul, How do you really know that your “documentation” is not the one that is composed of lies?

Do you realize that vested interests depend upon and profit from the stories that you think are the true stories?

If they are really true, why would they insist that no one, under penalty of the law must ever question them?  Deny that they are true and you go to jail.  What do you think about that?

Don’t you believe that the real truth can stand on its own regardless of what anyone says?

What would happen if you learned that the stories you put your faith in are really lies?

OhZone - 28 April 2009 02:44 PM

Well Paul, How do you really know that your “documentation” is not the one that is composed of lies?

Do you realize that vested interests depend upon and profit from the stories that you think are the true stories?

If they are really true, why would they insist that no one, under penalty of the law must ever question them?  Deny that they are true and you go to jail.  What do you think about that?

Don’t you believe that the real truth can stand on its own regardless of what anyone says?

What would happen if you learned that the stories you put your faith in are really lies?

I’ll keep it simple:

I have read many such books.  Most have an incredible high number of footnotes citing other, diverse sources and information. 

I am already familiar with such writings.  Have you forgotten that I was indoctrinated in the same educational system that you were?  I saw the same movies etc.  I was as much a believer as you are.  The difference is that I have a inquisitive mind.  I ask “Why & How” a lot. I am curious about thechnical aspects of situations ...such as the alleged gassings, the time it takes to carry out various tasks and practicality and efficiency of methods.  These traits I apply to all areas of my life.

Paul, don’t you think it would be wise to read the other side of the story?

From the website I mentioned - above:

“According to Chambers Encyclopedia the total number of Jews living in pre-war Europe was 6,500,000. Quite clearly, this would mean that almost the entire number were
exterminated.”

I have to ask, “what is it that you do not understand about these numbers?”

That article goes on to state the numbers of Jews who went to safer areas, millions of them.
Here are some videos explaining the propaganda used to ramp up our war fever.  You do realize, don’t you, that in war the first casualty is The Truth?

http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/

The author of the videos wrote to professors asking them to rebut the info in them.  They would not.
He tried to put ads in newspapers asking for rebuttals.  They ads were denied.  Why?

From the horses; mouths:

“No gassing took place in any camp on German soil."(Nazi Hunter Simon Wisenthal, in his Books and Bookmen, p. 5)

“We Jews regard our race as superior to all humanity, and look forward, not to its ultimate union with other races, but to its triumph over them.” (Goldwin Smith, Jewish Professor of Modern History at Oxford University, October, 1981)

“. . . purposely overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at Auschwitz-Birkenau by many times their true numbers. With the end of communism in Poland and the former Soviet Union, official sat the Auschwitz museum have meticulously lowered the casualty figures in line with the estimates of historians who, for years, have insisted that between one and 1 1/2 million people perished at Auschwitz-Birkenau - 80 - 90% of them Jews. (The Breitbard Document, as published by the Simon Wiesenthal Center )

“We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own.” (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).

“There is scarcely an event in modern history that cannot be traced to the Jews. We Jews today, are nothing else but the world’s seducers, its destroyer’s, its incendiaries.” (Jewish Writer, Oscar Levy, The World Significance of the Russian Revolution).

“Soviet Russia is a dictatorship of Jewry.” Arno Mayer (Jewish Professor at Princeton, “Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?")

Between the years 250 CE and 1948 CE - a period of 1,700 years - Jews have experienced more than eighty expulsions from various countries in Europe - an average of nearly one expulsion every twenty-one years. Jews were expelled from England, France, Austria, Germany, Lithuania, Spain, Portugal, Bohemia, Moravia and seventy-one other countries, including areas of the U.S.
Here is a list in chronological order.  Rather shocking what happened.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/HistoryJewishPersecution/

So why were/are they so hated?  Maybe it is just their attitude, as per above quotes by them.

I have already posted this one, but in case you missed it here it is again.

The Canadian Intelligence Service - Excerpt from September 1952 issue - submitted by James Moorhouse. - The following speech was given by Rabbi Emanuel Rabinovich before a special meeting of the Emergency Council of European Rabbis in Budapest, Hungary, January 12, 1952

“The goal for which we have striven so concertedly for three thousand years is at last within our reach, and because its fulfillment is so apparent, it behooves us to increase our efforts and our caution tenfold. I can safely promise you that before ten years have passed, our race will take its rightful place in the world, with every Jew a king and every Gentile a slave. We will openly reveal our identity with the races of Asia and Africa. I can state with assurance that the last generation of white children is now being born.

“Our control Commissions will, in the interest of peace and wiping out our interracial tensions, forbid the whites to mate with white. The white woman must cohabit with members of the dark races, the white men with black women. Thus the white race will disappear, for mixing the dark with white means the end of the white man, and our most dangerous enemy will become only a memory. We shall embark upon an era of ten thousand years of peace and plenty, the Pax Judaica, and our race will rule undisputed over the world. Our superior intelligence will easily enable us to retain mastery over a world of dark people.”

This next is an excerpt from the same speech, found in the book, The World’s Troublemakers. [See resources ] “THE STRUGGLE AGAINST THE GENTILES” Speaking of the Third World War, Rabbi Rabinovich is publicly reported to have addressed a special meeting of Rabbis in Budapest on January 12, 1952 thus:
“… This war will end for all time the struggle against the Gentiles… Our race will rule undisputed over the world… And so, with vision of world victory before you, go back to your countries and intensify your good work, until that approaching day when Israel will reveal herself in all her glorious destiny as the Light of the World”.

OhZone - 30 April 2009 06:11 PM

I am already familiar with such writings.  Have you forgotten that I was indoctrinated in the same educational system that you were?  I saw the same movies etc.  I was as much a believer as you are.  The difference is that I have a inquisitive mind.  I ask “Why & How” a lot. I am curious about thechnical aspects of situations ...such as the alleged gassings, the time it takes to carry out various tasks and practicality and efficiency of methods.  These traits I apply to all areas of my life.

Paul, don’t you think it would be wise to read the other side of the story?

From the website I mentioned - above:

“According to Chambers Encyclopedia the total number of Jews living in pre-war Europe was 6,500,000. Quite clearly, this would mean that almost the entire number were
exterminated.”

I have to ask, “what is it that you do not understand about these numbers?”

That article goes on to state the numbers of Jews who went to safer areas, millions of them.
Here are some videos explaining the propaganda used to ramp up our war fever.  You do realize, don’t you, that in war the first casualty is The Truth?

http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/

The author of the videos wrote to professors asking them to rebut the info in them.  They would not.
He tried to put ads in newspapers asking for rebuttals.  They ads were denied.  Why?

From the horses; mouths:

“No gassing took place in any camp on German soil."(Nazi Hunter Simon Wisenthal, in his Books and Bookmen, p. 5)

“We Jews regard our race as superior to all humanity, and look forward, not to its ultimate union with other races, but to its triumph over them.” (Goldwin Smith, Jewish Professor of Modern History at Oxford University, October, 1981)

“. . . purposely overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at Auschwitz-Birkenau by many times their true numbers. With the end of communism in Poland and the former Soviet Union, official sat the Auschwitz museum have meticulously lowered the casualty figures in line with the estimates of historians who, for years, have insisted that between one and 1 1/2 million people perished at Auschwitz-Birkenau - 80 - 90% of them Jews. (The Breitbard Document, as published by the Simon Wiesenthal Center )

“We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own.” (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).

“There is scarcely an event in modern history that cannot be traced to the Jews. We Jews today, are nothing else but the world’s seducers, its destroyer’s, its incendiaries.” (Jewish Writer, Oscar Levy, The World Significance of the Russian Revolution).

“Soviet Russia is a dictatorship of Jewry.” Arno Mayer (Jewish Professor at Princeton, “Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?")

Between the years 250 CE and 1948 CE - a period of 1,700 years - Jews have experienced more than eighty expulsions from various countries in Europe - an average of nearly one expulsion every twenty-one years. Jews were expelled from England, France, Austria, Germany, Lithuania, Spain, Portugal, Bohemia, Moravia and seventy-one other countries, including areas of the U.S.
Here is a list in chronological order.  Rather shocking what happened.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/HistoryJewishPersecution/

So why were/are they so hated?  Maybe it is just their attitude, as per above quotes by them.

I have already posted this one, but in case you missed it here it is again.

The Canadian Intelligence Service - Excerpt from September 1952 issue - submitted by James Moorhouse. - The following speech was given by Rabbi Emanuel Rabinovich before a special meeting of the Emergency Council of European Rabbis in Budapest, Hungary, January 12, 1952

“The goal for which we have striven so concertedly for three thousand years is at last within our reach, and because its fulfillment is so apparent, it behooves us to increase our efforts and our caution tenfold. I can safely promise you that before ten years have passed, our race will take its rightful place in the world, with every Jew a king and every Gentile a slave. We will openly reveal our identity with the races of Asia and Africa. I can state with assurance that the last generation of white children is now being born.

“Our control Commissions will, in the interest of peace and wiping out our interracial tensions, forbid the whites to mate with white. The white woman must cohabit with members of the dark races, the white men with black women. Thus the white race will disappear, for mixing the dark with white means the end of the white man, and our most dangerous enemy will become only a memory. We shall embark upon an era of ten thousand years of peace and plenty, the Pax Judaica, and our race will rule undisputed over the world. Our superior intelligence will easily enable us to retain mastery over a world of dark people.”

This next is an excerpt from the same speech, found in the book, The World’s Troublemakers. [See resources ] “THE STRUGGLE AGAINST THE GENTILES” Speaking of the Third World War, Rabbi Rabinovich is publicly reported to have addressed a special meeting of Rabbis in Budapest on January 12, 1952 thus:
“… This war will end for all time the struggle against the Gentiles… Our race will rule undisputed over the world… And so, with vision of world victory before you, go back to your countries and intensify your good work, until that approaching day when Israel will reveal herself in all her glorious destiny as the Light of the World”.

One of my uncles was a member of the KKK, John Birch Society and was an officer with the American Party of Florida. 

They are simply attempting to justify their own prejudicies

OhZone - 30 April 2009 06:11 PM

“According to Chambers Encyclopedia the total number of Jews living in pre-war Europe was 6,500,000. 

From OhZone:

“No gassing took place in any camp on German soil."(Nazi Hunter Simon Wisenthal, in his Books and Bookmen, p. 5)

That is correct.  The mass gassings took place on German occupied soil, e.g. Poland in particular.  And it was the Nazis, their supporters and their employees who accomplished the mass gassings, mass murders, which was but one major aspect of the Holocaust.

See how you distort the historical record?

From OhZone:

Rabbi Rabinovich is publicly reported to have addressed a special meeting of Rabbis in Budapest on January 12, 1952 thus:

“… This war will end for all time the struggle against the Gentiles… Our race will rule undisputed over the world… And so, with vision of world victory before you, go back to your countries and intensify your good work, until that approaching day when Israel will reveal herself in all her glorious destiny as the Light of the World”.

Key words:  “publicly reported”. 

Rabbi Rabinovich?  If he even said these words, he was a delusional or end times Rabbi.  Common sense tells that the millions of Jews surviving the Holocaust don’t compare in sheer numbers to some seven billion human beings alive today. 

PaulDHarvill - 27 April 2009 07:45 PM

OhZone,

We have met on other message boards.

There is so much documentation regarding what really happened in the Holocaust that your assertions are but lies upon lies upon lies.

Do you have any shame?

Pau D. Harvill

Don’t bother trying to argue with OhZone, Bavarialand, et. al. It’s like trying to reason with a drunk… you simply cannot win.

My advice is to simply ignore their posts.

Pax,

Yes Paul, we have met on the message boards - I thought it was here, but maybe it was the old SPTimes board.

Pre-War Germany = 1939-1945.
Paul what points of the writers “denying:” the holocaust do you disagree with?

Have you really given a fair look at all the evidence?
Just saying that they are wrong does not make it so.
You do believe in being a fair judge don’t you?

My argument at this point is simply the population numbers -vs.- the numbers allegedly killed.
More from:  http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history/msg/c636f5c0e5469920?

“IMPOSSIBLE BIRTH RATE
Indisputable evidence is also provided by the post-war world Jewish
population statistics.
The World Almanac of 1938 gives the number of Jews
in the world as 16,588,259.
But after the war, the New York Times, February
22nd, 1948 placed the number of Jews in the world at a
minimum of 15,600,000
and a maximum of 18,700,000.
Quite obviously, these figures make it
impossible for the number of Jewish war-time casualties to be measured in
anything but thousands.
15-1/2 million in 1938 minus the alleged six million
leaves nine million; (in the WORLD)
the New York Times figures would mean, therefore, that
the world’s Jews produced seven million births, almost doubling their
numbers, in the space of ten years.”

Maybe you can find numbers that differ?

So you think that R.Rabinovich was a radical?
Is what he was saying coming to pass or not?
In just a few years white folk in the US will be a minority. 
The Southwest US is already at -50%.
Do you find that in any way scary?

Sub, maybe the reason you cannot win is because you only give opinions and not valid arguments.

My apologies for getting behind with my postings. 

OhZone’s denial allegations regarding 1/3 of the planet’s Jews being exterminated in one manner or another by the Nazis is simply ridiculous.  However anyone who desires to deny history, to deny relatity, will find any manner to do so.  Ideological blindness.

Paul, I think you are the one with the ideological blindness.
Or is it by a leap of faith that you believe this?

You have failed to challenge my population figures.

You have offered only your opinion based on the multifarious propaganda that you have swallowed over the years. 
Do you always believe everything you hear or read?
Do you ever question anything?
Do you try to seek out evidence pro or con and examine it?

It is OK to be neutral and withhold having an opinion when you find that evidence inconclusive.

More extractions from “Religion and the Origins of the Death Camps:  A Psychoanalytic Interpretation” by Professor Richard L. Rubenstein in the 1992 edition of his book “After Auschwitz”. 

The Deicide Accusation:

The Christian religion , alone among the religions of the world, begins with a murder—the murder of God.

It’s decisive symbol is the cross, the instrument of execution by which the deicide was carried out.  In Christian thought the Jews play a twofold role:  they provide both the incarnate Deity and His murderers....

The emotions undergirding the deicide accusation and the competing claims of election resemble those of sibling rivalry.  The terrible accusation, “You have murdered or wanted to murder the Father,” implies, “therefore you are wholly unfit to be his beloved child.” Because Jesus is God, the Son of God, in Christian theology, the violence done to his person is equally violence against God the Father....

The Jews made an extraordinary claim about themselves—that they were in a special and decisive way God’s Chosen People.  Instead of ridiculing it, a very large portion of the non-Jewish world took the claim seriously....

...[O]ne of the oldest conflicts between Jew and Christian is the question of who is truly the elect of the Lord....

Through no one’s fault, the denial of Jesus by the Jews, whether spoken or unspoken, was a greater threat to the Christian belief system than the nonbelief of any other people....

They were not seen as the defeated and impotent people they were, lacking a normal political life of their own; instead, the very marginality of their existence elicited mythical interpretations....

The terrible significance of the deicide accusation cannot be over-emphasized:  In this system if God is dead, the Jews are his murderers.  At the extremely important vulgar level, the cry of “Christ-killer” has, more often than not, accompanied the instigation of anti-Semitic violence....

Well-meaning Christians often deny that they are taught that Jews are the Christ-killers.  They claim they are taught that all men and women are responsible through their sins for the death of Christ.  Unfortunately, they attempt to share the blame is of doubtful efficacy.  Though all many have been responsible from the religious point of view, the actual deed is irrevocably depicted in the Gospels as having been committed by members of an identifiable historical community....

Pontius Pilate is depicted as offering the Jews the opportunity to choose Jesus or Barabbas for release from the death penalty.  The Jews chose Barabbas.  Pilate insists that he finds no fault with Jesus.  He washes his hands of the affair and permits the execution.  The onus of guilt is clearly placed upon the Jews. 

In Matthew the Jews are depicted as replying to Pilate’s protestations of innocence:  “His blood be upon us and our children” (Matt 27:25).  The murder of God is thus depicted as a continuing source of guilt of the Jewish posterity. 

The explosive significance of the crucifixion story as a myth of the death of God is illuminated by Ivan Karamazov’s remark in Dostoevsky’s The Brothers Karamazov, “If God does not exist, all things are permitted.” In both Judaism and Christianity, all moral restraints are ultimately derived from God’s lordship over creation.

The wish to murder God is the terminal mythical expression of humanity’s ineradicable temptation to moral anarchy.  Given the Judeo-Christian view of God as the ultimate source of moral legitimation, a world without God would be a world with no impediment to the gratification of desire, no matter how perverse of anarchic.  The perversity of the human heart finds its ultimate expression in the myth of the murder of God.

The accusation that a people is deicidal implies that they are utterly beyond all law and moral restraint....

More extractions from “Religion and the Origins of the Death Camps:  A Psychoanalytic Interpretation” by Professor Richard L. Rubenstein in the 1992 edition of his book “After Auschwitz”. 

The Devil and the Jews:

During the Middle Ages, the identification of Jews as moral anarchists was intensified by the further identification of the Jew with the Devil and the Antichrist.  These identifications were already implicit in the crucifixion story and the rivalry between the two religious communities. 

The identification of the Jews with the Devil is explicit in the Fourth Gospel, in which Jesus is depicted as saying to those who reject his mission: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me....  You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.  He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him....  But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.” (John 8:42-45).

In medieval Europe, the Jews were the only people who openly and successfully resisted Christianity.  The Saxons tried and failed.  Since the Jews were the one people resident in Europe who had seen the Christ and beheld his passion, their stubborn refusal to acknowledge him was ascribed to the supernatural power of their satanic master. 

The only other group that continuously resisted Christianity was the witch cult.  The Jews were thus depicted as openly worshiping the blackest of masters, whose non-Jewish devotees, by contrast, were depicted as at least having the decency to pay their homage in secrecy....

No imagined crime was too heinous to be ascribed to them.  As they had been guilty of the crucifixion, they were regarded as symbolically repeating the crime by the sacrificial murder of Christian victims, especially at Passover time.

The blood libel has persisted down to our own times and was used by the Nazis....

For the radical anti-Semite, there is only one solution—the extermination of the Jews.  This is ritual murder made morally acceptable to the perpetrator by the deicide accusation....

When the anti-Semite accuses the Jew of ritual murder, he accuses him of the very crime that he himself intends to commit. 

At the same time, he fails to comprehend the inherent gratuity of the whole business.  The death of the sacrificial victim solves no problem in the real world.
___________________

An aside:  Freud noted that Christianity begins with such a crime—and that the cannibalistic aspect of the primal crime are repeated in the Mass....

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More extractions from “Religion and the Origins of the Death Camps:  A Psychoanalytic Interpretation” by Professor Richard L. Rubenstein in the 1992 edition of his book “After Auschwitz”. 

National Socialism:  An Inversion of Judeo-Christian Values

National Socialism was an inverted and demonic transformation of Jewish and Christian values combined with a romantic hankering after a paganism it never understood. It needed the Judeo-Christian yes to assert the National Socialist no.  The Greeks were pagan....  Hubris was the rebellion against our limits....  Hubris was followed, as night follows day, by inevitable nemesis, which righted the wrong and restored nature’s disturbed equilibrium.  Good and evil were rooted in the very nature of the cosmos itself.  By disturbing nature’s equilibrium, evil was in a sense unnatural; inevitably fate would overtake it perpetrators.  All things were measured out, and even the gods could not trespass their assigned limits. 

National Socialism is the product of a negative reaction to and an inversion of the values of the Judeo-Christian world.  As much as the nineteenth and twentieth-century Teutonists wanted to rid themselves of Christianity, they were far more influenced by it than they imagined....  They were never able to restore a genuine paganism....

National Socialism is Judeo-Christian heresy, not paganism.  It presupposes, though it overturns, both its mythos and its ethos.

The difference between the Judeo-Christian conception of sin and the Greek concept of hubrisis is of decisive importance.  In the Judeo-Christian universe, good and evil are not rooted in the nature of things.  The natural and moral worlds were regarded as entirely dependent upon the omnipotent will of the Creator-God.  He who created the natural world also created good and evil....

In biblical religion, God’s will is not subject to man’s critical scrutiny [see the Book of Job].  We are expected to comply because of the ultimate authority of the Source.

Only in the Judeo-Christian conception of a divinely created cosmos does deicide make sense as an anti-value explosion. It did not make sense in paganism....

There are dying gods a plenty in paganism, but no pagan could ever join Ivan Karamazov in declaring that if God did not exist, everything would be permitted. 

Only in biblical religion is there a meaningful motive for deicide as a human temptation, for only in biblical religion are all norms derived from the God who transcends them.  The wish to murder God makes sense only when all values derive from Him.

In such a system the deicidal act is an assertion of the will to total moral and religious license.....  [O]nly the terrible accusation, known and taught to every Christian in earliest childhood, that the Jews are the killers of Christ, can account for the depth and persistence of this supreme hatred. 

In a sense, the death camps were the terminal expression of Christian anti-Semitism.  Without Christianity, the Jews would never have become the central victims.  Moreover, the hatred lives.  Every swastika painted on a public place or Jewish establishment since the end of World War II is an expression of dark admiration for Auschwitz. 

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