As quoted in my previous post, an observation worthy of further discussion:

In a sense, the death camps were the terminal expression of Christian anti-Semitism.  Without Christianity, the Jews would never have become the central victims.  Moreover, the hatred lives.  Every swastika painted on a public place or Jewish establishment since the end of World War II is an expression of dark admiration for Auschwitz. 

However it recommended to read the entire previous posting from May 21 before further discussion.  The other more recent postings from “Religion and the Origins of the Death Camps:  A Psychoanalytic Interpretation” by Professor Richard L. Rubenstein in the 1992 edition of his book “After Auschwitz” are highly recommended to read in order to better understand Professor Rubenstein’s conclusions.

Hey Paul, despite your obsession with the Holocaust......I’d like to remind you that this is a ‘spam forum’, and the administration kindly asks you to refrain from future posts.........Unless you have some counterfiet Nikes for sale.......

thank you,
ghost

Don’t you think that the whole idea that it is possible to kill an omnicient, omnipotent God is ridiculous?  Just goes to show you that Christians have no ability to reason in this area.

When I was going to church (Evangelical Free Church)we were taught that God sent Jesus to Earth to die.(for our sins.  He was the blood sacrifice by which God was propitiated)
That was his plan.
So the jews were simply fulfilling God’s “orders”, and therefore are blameless.

So exactly why did the church “fathers” fill their followers with this nonsense?

I don’t think that Hitler’s dislike of the Jews had anything to do with what allegedly happened to them.

Paul, you haven’t refuted my population figures.
Did you or did you not review the opposing evidence?
You do think it is fair to listen to the other side of the story don’t you?

OhZone - 26 May 2009 07:36 PM

Don’t you think that the whole idea that it is possible to kill an omnicient, omnipotent God is ridiculous?  Just goes to show you that Christians have no ability to reason in this area.

Then you simply don’t “get it”. 

When I was going to church (Evangelical Free Church)we were taught that God sent Jesus to Earth to die.(for our sins.  He was the blood sacrifice by which God was propitiated)
That was his plan.

Now you are “getting it” a little.

So the jews were simply fulfilling God’s “orders”, and therefore are blameless.

But not in your world view.

So exactly why did the church “fathers” fill their followers with this nonsense?

You need to read the entire article, or at least my extractions from the article.

I don’t think that Hitler’s dislike of the Jews had anything to do with what allegedly happened to them.

And that is a sack of feces.  What “allegedly happened to them”.  You would deny the Nazi archives that proves the Holocaust, and then include the surviving eyewitnesses, Nazi and nonNazi, other documentary evidence and proof, et al.  Hitler hated the Jews.  He did not merely dislike the Jews.  Otherwise he would not have directed the murder of some five to six million Jews. 

Paul, you haven’t refuted my population figures.

Don’t need to.  They are bogus.

Did you or did you not review the opposing evidence?

Bogus “evidence”.

You do think it is fair to listen to the other side of the story don’t you?

Please quit your Nazi sympathizer or supporter fecal material.

bridgeghost - 24 May 2009 07:52 PM

Hey Paul, despite your obsession with the Holocaust......I’d like to remind you that this is a ‘spam forum’, and the administration kindly asks you to refrain from future posts.........Unless you have some counterfiet Nikes for sale.......

thank you,
ghost

I’ve noticed.

Where is the moderator?

No, I don’t get it.  How do you kill a God? 
I could go on about my thoughts of that “blood sacrifice”.  Like why does this omniscient, omnipotent, loving God need someone’s blood to appease him?  This is quite macabre, don’t you think?  From reading the Bible I get that He liked blood quit a lot.  This was one of the key points that turned me off on this religion. 

O: “So the jews were simply fulfilling God’s “orders”, and therefore are blameless.”

P: “But not in your world view.”

****Do you care to explain.  Were the Jews fulfilling God’s orders or not?  I was told that this was His plan.  (Since He wrote the script.)
I did read the article as you posted it.

You cannot prove that 6 million Jews were killed.
You do not have population figures to refute those I posted.
You have no proof, only your “belief” which has no basis in fact.

Your accusation of “Nazi sympathizer” is over the edge there Paul.
You are resorting to childlike behavior.

OhZone - 27 May 2009 06:58 PM

No, I don’t get it.  How do you kill a God?

I could go on about my thoughts of that “blood sacrifice”.

Like why does this omniscient, omnipotent, loving God need someone’s blood to appease him? 

This is quite macabre, don’t you think?  From reading the Bible I get that He liked blood quit a lot. 

This was one of the key points that turned me off on this religion. 

O: “So the Jews were simply fulfilling God’s “orders”, and therefore are blameless.”

P: “But not in your world view.”

****Do you care to explain. 

Were the Jews fulfilling God’s orders or not? 

I was told that this was His plan.  (Since He wrote the script.)

I did read the article as you posted it.

Then I’ll leave you to your own intelligence on the above.

You cannot prove that 6 million Jews were killed.

I have stated five to six million Jews.  The proof is abundant, including most especially the various Nazi archives as well as archival materials that were seized by the Allies during and after WW II.


You do not have population figures to refute those I posted.

I don’t need too.  The facts from the archival materials alone defeat your mere assertions and the reliabilty of your sources.

You have no proof, only your “belief” which has no basis in fact.

Please see the proof cited earlier in this posting, as well as every single book, magazine, article, journal that is available about the Holocaust.  Oh, Zone, you are so very, very, very inaccurate and wrong.  And your world view prevents you fron truly seeing and understanding the facts.

Your accusation of “Nazi sympathizer” is over the edge there Paul.

Not according to all the postings I’ve read from you over the years at the St. Petersburg Times former forums and these forums.

You are resorting to childlike behavior.

You are resorting to lies, distortions, your hatred of Jews, et al.

You can’t prove 5 million Jews either.
The Nazis kept records on who they executed?
So show me these archival records as to populations etc.
Surely you must have seen them?
You have cited no proof.
Your books written by Jews are not proof.
How about all the books written by non-jews?
Why do you believe only the books written by the Jews?
Why do you refuse to look at the other side of the story?

I suppose you have a firm belief that every word allegedly written by Anne Frank are true also.
You are resorting to insults due to being out argued.

Are you in favor of sending people to jail for questioning the alleged holocaust?

If it was really true, why do the Jews object to thorough investigation?

Abe Foxman says “Holocaust” was assault on God Himself – thus, according to him, the Jews = God
As an example of how the “Holocaust” is now replacing the Crucifixion as the central event of history, the Jew Abe Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League wrote this:

Abraham Foxman, ADL on the Frontline, January 1994 Issue: “The Holocaust is something different.

It is a singular event. It is not simply one example of genocide but a near successful attempt on the life of God’s chosen children and thus, on God Himself. It is an event that is the antithesis of Creation as recorded in the Bible; and like its direct opposite, which is relived weekly with the Sabbath and yearly with Torah, it must be remembered from generation to generation.”
He says that the “Holocaust” is an attack on God Himself. What was the Crucifixion? It was an attack on God Himself. This is the replacement of Christ with the Jews.

SO, PAUL, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?
Now then if the Jews are God’s chozen, we of course should give them everything they want.
Maybe you think we should worship them.
-----------------------------------------------

“On the basis of the analysis, this is where we stand now:
First, out of the study of the statistics of the World Center of Contemporary Jewish Documentation and from its own data, we find 1,589,492 European Jews dead or missing as a consequence of Nazi persecutions in concentration camps or in some other way. Second, out of the study of Mr. Raul Hilberg’s data we find only 987,592 dead or missing Jews.”

http://www.ihr.org/books/rassinier/debunking2-15.html

And we have this from:http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/the_holocaust.php

Facts which contradict the official “Holocaust” story
-The propaganda hoax which has been so effectively used to cement Jewish power and influence in the world, and to silence any questioning of Jewish activities, support for Israel or a Jewish agenda-
A Jew debunks the Auschwitz “Gas Chamber,” the official Holocaust Story, and many other aspects of the Holocaust
The Truth Behind the Gates of Auschwitz, by David Cole - Part 1 [30 min.]

“There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

****Judging from the number of Jews in high places in our government it appears that they have stolen our country too.  Many of them are duel citizens.
We also send Israel billion$.  They steal our money too.
They run the world’s money system.
They therefore control the world’s economies.

Jews control the media.  All commercial news outlets are censored by them.  You will know nothing they do not want you to know.

...The fact that Zionists control virtually every media outlet in America is no doubt why the American citizenry hears only one version of events in the Middle East-the pro-Jew, pro-Israeli side. This led Dr. Kevin MacDonald, professor at California State University, to write:

“In the contemporary world, organized American Jewish lobbying groups and deeply committed Jews in the media are behind the pro-Israel U.S. foreign policy that is leading to war against virtually the entire Arab world…..”

There is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.” — President Woodrow Wilson

The American mind simply has not come to a realization of the evil which has been introduced into our midst.” J. Edgar Hoover

OhZone - 28 May 2009 03:29 PM

You can’t prove 5 million Jews either.

Yes I can.  The Nazi archives is an excellent beginning point.

The Nazis kept records on who they executed?

Yes.

So show me these archival records as to populations etc.

Do some key word searches.

Surely you must have seen them?

Yes.  Cited in many books and articles.

You have cited no proof.

Yes.  Cited in many books and articles.  And on “60 Minutes” the archives were shown as well as interviews with the pertinent people.

Your books written by Jews are not proof.

You demonstrate your lack of knowledge.  John Roth, co-author of Approaches to Auschwitz, is a Christian—but one example.  This is the best selling of all textbooks regarding the Holocaust.  Also review the books available at Amazon and other key word searches.

How about all the books written by non-jews?

See the above response.

Why do you believe only the books written by the Jews?

I don’t.

Why do you refuse to look at the other side of the story?

I don’t.  However I find the credibility of the survivors, the Nazi archives, documents from throughout Germany and occupied Europe, etc. far more credible than your “sources”, which are from Neo-Nazi and the like organizations. 

I suppose you have a firm belief that every word allegedly written by Anne Frank are true also.
You are resorting to insults due to being out argued.

Anne Frank wrote a diary.  She was 15 years old.  Obviously she had a limited view of the world hiding in a sympathetic family’s attic.

Are you in favor of sending people to jail for questioning the alleged Holocaust?

No.  Not ever.  Never.  Freedom to think and speak.  Not 1984 nor Brave New World.

If it was really true, why do the Jews object to thorough investigation?

How many do?

Abe Foxman says “Holocaust” was assault on God Himself – thus, according to him, the Jews = God.

As an example of how the “Holocaust” is now replacing the Crucifixion as the central event of history, the Jew Abe Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League wrote this:

Abraham Foxman, ADL on the Frontline, January 1994 Issue: “The Holocaust is something different.

It is a singular event. It is not simply one example of genocide but a near successful attempt on the life of God’s chosen children and thus, on God Himself.

It is an event that is the antithesis of Creation as recorded in the Bible; and like its direct opposite, which is relived weekly with the Sabbath and yearly with Torah, it must be remembered from generation to generation.”

He says that the “Holocaust” is an attack on God Himself. What was the Crucifixion? It was an attack on God Himself. This is the replacement of Christ with the Jews.

SO, PAUL, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?

The Holocaust was an attack upon God as understood in the biblical tradition, as Dr. Richard L. Rubenstein so elequently stated in earlier postings on this thread. 

Both the Holocaust and the Crucifixtion are attacks on God as understood by the biblical tradition.

More in the next posting.

quote author="OhZone" date="1243556991"]

“On the basis of the analysis, this is where we stand now:

First, out of the study of the statistics of the World Center of Contemporary Jewish Documentation and from its own data, we find 1,589,492 European Jews dead or missing as a consequence of Nazi persecutions in concentration camps or in some other way. Second, out of the study of Mr. Raul Hilberg’s data we find only 987,592 dead or missing Jews.”

I have read Raul Hilberg’s works—what you write is a misrepresention.  He is one of the greatest Holocaust scholars.

http://www.memorialdelashoah.org/getHomeAction.do?langage=en

http://www.ihr.org/books/rassinier/debunking2-15.html

And we have this from:http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/the_holocaust.php

Facts which contradict the official “Holocaust” story

-The propaganda hoax which has been so effectively used to cement Jewish power and influence in the world, and to silence any questioning of Jewish activities, support for Israel or a Jewish agenda-
A Jew debunks the Auschwitz “Gas Chamber,” the official Holocaust Story, and many other aspects of the Holocaust

The Truth Behind the Gates of Auschwitz, by David Cole - Part 1 [30 min.]

The quote above clearly demonstrates absolutely no neutrality nor objectivity.  The words are so similar to Hitler’s words.

“There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

The context of the above quote is essential to understand what the author is seeking to communicate.  You have removed the context.

****Judging from the number of Jews in high places in our government it appears that they have stolen our country too.  Many of them are dual citizens.

Numerous Americans retain dual citizenship—besides to Israel.

We also send Israel billion$.  They steal our money too.

The United States Congress and the President provide those monies to Israel.  Thus the money is not stolen.  That is such a bizarre argument, Oh Zone.

They run the world’s money system.

They are definitely influential since education is such a high priority for many Jews—although certainly not all.  But is Robert Gates Jewish?  And that list of Gentiles who run the world money system is long, much longer.  Prove me otherwise. 

They therefore control the world’s economies.

[bSee the immediately above comment by men.]

Jews control the media.  All commercial news outlets are censored by them.  You will know nothing they do not want you to know.

Tell that to NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, FoxNews, NPR, BBC, et al.  You will be laughed out of their offices and you would be considered a lunatic.  Prove me otherwise.

...The fact that Zionists control virtually every media outlet in America is no doubt why the American citizenry hears only one version of events in the Middle East-the pro-Jew, pro-Israeli side.

What are your sources for the news regarding Israel, the Palestinians and the Middle East?

This led Dr. Kevin MacDonald, professor at California State University, to write:

“In the contemporary world, organized American Jewish lobbying groups and deeply committed Jews in the media are behind the pro-Israel U.S. foreign policy that is leading to war against virtually the entire Arab world…..”

Two wars already won by the Israelis— 1967 and 1973.  Not bad for such a small and insigificant country.  There are millions of Christians who support Israel financially, in writings and speeches, etc. 

I sure hope that Israel retaliates with sufficient weapons before a hostile country even begins to use nuclear weapons against Israel, e.g. most especially Iran.

There is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.” — President Woodrow Wilson

Context?

The American mind simply has not come to a realization of the evil which has been introduced into our midst.” J. Edgar Hoover

Context?

Context
Not the same idendtical words.
Wilson has other books.

THE NEW FREEDOM
A CALL FOR THE EMANCIPATION OF THE GENEROUS ENERGIES OF A PEOPLE
BY
WOODROW WILSON
E book from:  http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14811/14811-h/14811-h.htm
Chapter XI
THE EMANCIPATION OF BUSINESS

2nd paragraph:
I am one of those who believe that we have had such restrictions upon the prosperity of this country that we have not yet come into our own, and that by removing those restrictions we shall set free an energy which in our generation has not been known. It is for that reason that I feel free to criticize with the utmost frankness these restrictions, and the means by which they have been brought about. I do not criticize as one without hope; in describing conditions which so hamper, impede, and imprison, I am only describing conditions from which we are going to escape into a contrasting age. I believe that this is a time when there should be unqualified frankness. One of the distressing circumstances of our day is this: I cannot tell you how many men of business, how many important men of business, have communicated their real opinions about the situation in the United States to me privately and confidentially. They are afraid of somebody. They are afraid to make their real opinions known publicly; they tell them to me behind their hand. That is very distressing. That means that we are not masters of our own opinions, except when we vote, and even then we are careful to vote very privately indeed.

It is alarming that this should be the case. Why should any man in free America be afraid of any other man? Or why should any man fear competition,—competition either with his fellow-countrymen or with anybody else on earth?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote by:  J. Edgar Hoover
former FBI director
Source:  in Elks Magazine (August 1956)

“We must now face the harsh truth that the objectives of communism are being steadily advanced because many of us do not recognize the means used to advance them. ... The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a Conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists. The American mind simply has not come to a realization of the evil which has been introduced into our midst.”

So you believe the Nazi archives, but not the Jewish archives?

What do you think of Paul Rassinier’s books, “Drama of European Jews” and” Lies of Ulysses”?

AUL RASSINIER is known as the father of Holocaust revisionism. Rassinier is an unlikely man to have earned such a title. During World War II, Rassinier was a highly decorated member of the French Resistance. In October of 1943 he was arrested by the Gestapo for various activities including the smuggling of Jewish refugees over the Franco-Swiss border. Rassinier was sent to the concentration camp at Buchenwald for his activities. Later he would be moved to Dora where he would stay through the war’s end.

After the war, Rassinier returned to his native France and was elected to the Assemblee Nationale. He was awarded the highest decoration by the French government for his involvement with the Resistance during the war. Rassinier, who was trained in history, set out after the war to document his experiences within the German concentration camp system. The vivid and accurate depictions of life at Buchenwald and Dora should be read by any who are interested in the subject. Rassinier paints the horrible picture of the dead being brought from Dora to Buchenwald for cremation, “Every day trucks brought full loads of dead bodies from Dora to be cremated at Buchenwald, and it was from the prescence of these corpses that the horrors of the camp were deduced.” (Holocaust Story and the Lies of Ulysses p.38 hereafter HSLU) Rassinier details the alarming death rate at Buchenwald due to, “bad treatment, the poor and insufficient food, the super human work, the lack of medicines, and ... pneumonia” (HSLU p.44) It was following the publication of Rassinier’s earliest works that he realized that the war-time stories of other inmates were both popular and terrible exaggerations. Rassinier wrote,
“Then one day I realized that a false picture of the German camps had been created and that the problem of the concentration camps was a universal one, not just one that could be disposed of by placing it on the doorstep of the National Socialists. The deportees-many of whom were Communists- had been largely responsible for leading international political thinking to such an erroneous conclusion. I suddenly felt that by remaining silent I was an accomplice to a dangerous influence.” (HSLU p.109)

Rassinier began to debunk and deconstruct the works of his fellow inmates. A tremendous effort was made to debunk Raul Hilberg’s Destruction of the European Jews. Rassinier went as far as to predict that in the future, Hilberg’s volume “will not be spoken of at all, or if it is still mentioned, it will only be mentioned in reference to something unworthy of notice except as an example of the most scandalous aberrations of our times.” (HSLU p. 212)

By now, Rassinier had become skeptical of the lurid gas chamber stories which were being circulated. He wrote, “In 1950, it was still too soon to pronounce a definite judgment on the existence of gas chambers in the camps; documents were wanting and those that existed were incomplete, inexact, and obviously apocryphal or falsified.” (HSLU p.158) In the 1964 article, The Drama of the European Jews, Rassinier’s view became more firm:
“With regard to gas chambers, the almost endless procession of false witnesses and of falsified documents to which I have invited the reader’s attention during this long study, proves, nevertheless, only one thing: never at any moment did the responsible authorities of the Third Reich intend to order- or in fact, order - the extermination of the Jews in this or any other manner. Did such exterminations take place without orders? This question has haunted me for fifteen years.” (HSLU p.270)

Rassinier had determined that no wide-spread gassings took place and that there was no policy to exterminate the Jews of Europe. He also provided revisionists with the first real quantitative analysis of Jewish wartime deaths. His final total put the range of Jewish deaths for the twelve years of Nazism between 987,592 and 1,589,492. (HSLU p.389-90). Many years later, Professor Arthur Butz, author of, The Hoax of the Twentieth Century basically accepted Rassinier’s analysis and commented, “I will offer here no definite estimate of Jewish losses. However, I have no strong reason to quarrel with Rassinier’s estimate.” (Hoax p.17) Rassinier would later become even more certain about the falsity of the gas chamber claims. As a result of his studies, he made the following conclusion in The Real Eichmann Trial, “There never were any gas chambers, nor any exterminations by that method at Auschwitz-Birkenau.” (Real Eichmann Trial p.98)

http://www.codoh.com/author/portraits/port1ras.html

Are you having a problem with the website for World Center of Contemporary Jewish Documentation.  It is a bit confusing I’ll say, since most of it is in French.

You asked how many jews object to investigation of the alleged holocaust……
Enough of them to get laws passed against asking questions about it!!

I really have to wonder how anyone can attack and omniscient, omnipotent being such as God.
This seems like a silly notion.

Do you like sending your tax dollars to support the useless state of Israel?

Media owned by jews:

1995 Eisner acquired Capital Cities/ABC,
Capital Cities/ABC owns the ABC Television Network, which in turn owns ten TV stations outright in such big markets as New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, and Houston. In addition, it has 225 affiliated stations in the United States and is part owner of several European TV companies.

CBS was recently purchased by Westinghouse Electric Corporation. Nevertheless, the man appointed by Laurence Tisch, Eric Ober, remains president of CBS News, and Ober is a Jew.

At NBC, now owned by General Electric, NBC News president Andrew Lack is a Jew, as are executive producers Jeff Zucker (Today), Jeff Gralnick (NBC Nightly News), and Neal Shapiro (Dateline).

The complete list is really long Paul.  If you want to know you can google Who owns the media.

http://www.libreopinion.com/members/standarteslc/jewishquestion03.html

“The temperature started to rise, as the freight car was enclosed and body heat had no outlet.... The only place to urinate was through a slot in the skylight, though whoever tried this usually missed, spilling urine on the floor.... When dawn finally rose...we were all quite ill and shattered, crushed not NY Escort only by the weight of fatigue but by the stifling, moist atmosphere and the foul odor of excrement.... There was no latrine, no provision.... On top of everything else, a lot of people had vomited on NY Escorts the floor. We were to live for days on end breathing these foul smells, and soon we lived in the foulness itself.”

The latrines at the camps:

“There was one latrine for 30,000 to 32,000 women and we were permitted to use it only at certain hours of the day. We stood in line to get into this tiny building, knee-deep in NY Asian Escorts human excrement. As we all suffered from dysentery, we could hardly wait until our time came, and soiled our ragged clothes, which never came off our bodies, thus adding to the horror of our existence by the terrible smell which surrounded us like a cloud. The latrine consisted of a deep ditch with planks thrown NY Asian Escort across it at certain intervals. We squatted on these planks like birds perched on a telegraph wire, so close together that we could not help soiling one another.”

I’ve been on the computer for four hours continuously today.

I’ll get back with the last two posters—probably tomorrow, Sunday, June 7th.