My apologies for getting behind with my postings. 

OhZone’s denial allegations regarding 1/3 of the planet’s Jews being exterminated in one manner or another by the Nazis is simply ridiculous.  However anyone who desires to deny history, to deny relatity, will find any manner to do so.  Ideological blindness.

Paul, I think you are the one with the ideological blindness.
Or is it by a leap of faith that you believe this?

You have failed to challenge my population figures.

You have offered only your opinion based on the multifarious propaganda that you have swallowed over the years. 
Do you always believe everything you hear or read?
Do you ever question anything?
Do you try to seek out evidence pro or con and examine it?

It is OK to be neutral and withhold having an opinion when you find that evidence inconclusive.

More extractions from “Religion and the Origins of the Death Camps:  A Psychoanalytic Interpretation” by Professor Richard L. Rubenstein in the 1992 edition of his book “After Auschwitz”. 

The Deicide Accusation:

The Christian religion , alone among the religions of the world, begins with a murder—the murder of God.

It’s decisive symbol is the cross, the instrument of execution by which the deicide was carried out.  In Christian thought the Jews play a twofold role:  they provide both the incarnate Deity and His murderers....

The emotions undergirding the deicide accusation and the competing claims of election resemble those of sibling rivalry.  The terrible accusation, “You have murdered or wanted to murder the Father,” implies, “therefore you are wholly unfit to be his beloved child.” Because Jesus is God, the Son of God, in Christian theology, the violence done to his person is equally violence against God the Father....

The Jews made an extraordinary claim about themselves—that they were in a special and decisive way God’s Chosen People.  Instead of ridiculing it, a very large portion of the non-Jewish world took the claim seriously....

...[O]ne of the oldest conflicts between Jew and Christian is the question of who is truly the elect of the Lord....

Through no one’s fault, the denial of Jesus by the Jews, whether spoken or unspoken, was a greater threat to the Christian belief system than the nonbelief of any other people....

They were not seen as the defeated and impotent people they were, lacking a normal political life of their own; instead, the very marginality of their existence elicited mythical interpretations....

The terrible significance of the deicide accusation cannot be over-emphasized:  In this system if God is dead, the Jews are his murderers.  At the extremely important vulgar level, the cry of “Christ-killer” has, more often than not, accompanied the instigation of anti-Semitic violence....

Well-meaning Christians often deny that they are taught that Jews are the Christ-killers.  They claim they are taught that all men and women are responsible through their sins for the death of Christ.  Unfortunately, they attempt to share the blame is of doubtful efficacy.  Though all many have been responsible from the religious point of view, the actual deed is irrevocably depicted in the Gospels as having been committed by members of an identifiable historical community....

Pontius Pilate is depicted as offering the Jews the opportunity to choose Jesus or Barabbas for release from the death penalty.  The Jews chose Barabbas.  Pilate insists that he finds no fault with Jesus.  He washes his hands of the affair and permits the execution.  The onus of guilt is clearly placed upon the Jews. 

In Matthew the Jews are depicted as replying to Pilate’s protestations of innocence:  “His blood be upon us and our children” (Matt 27:25).  The murder of God is thus depicted as a continuing source of guilt of the Jewish posterity. 

The explosive significance of the crucifixion story as a myth of the death of God is illuminated by Ivan Karamazov’s remark in Dostoevsky’s The Brothers Karamazov, “If God does not exist, all things are permitted.” In both Judaism and Christianity, all moral restraints are ultimately derived from God’s lordship over creation.

The wish to murder God is the terminal mythical expression of humanity’s ineradicable temptation to moral anarchy.  Given the Judeo-Christian view of God as the ultimate source of moral legitimation, a world without God would be a world with no impediment to the gratification of desire, no matter how perverse of anarchic.  The perversity of the human heart finds its ultimate expression in the myth of the murder of God.

The accusation that a people is deicidal implies that they are utterly beyond all law and moral restraint....

More extractions from “Religion and the Origins of the Death Camps:  A Psychoanalytic Interpretation” by Professor Richard L. Rubenstein in the 1992 edition of his book “After Auschwitz”. 

The Devil and the Jews:

During the Middle Ages, the identification of Jews as moral anarchists was intensified by the further identification of the Jew with the Devil and the Antichrist.  These identifications were already implicit in the crucifixion story and the rivalry between the two religious communities. 

The identification of the Jews with the Devil is explicit in the Fourth Gospel, in which Jesus is depicted as saying to those who reject his mission: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me....  You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.  He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him....  But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.” (John 8:42-45).

In medieval Europe, the Jews were the only people who openly and successfully resisted Christianity.  The Saxons tried and failed.  Since the Jews were the one people resident in Europe who had seen the Christ and beheld his passion, their stubborn refusal to acknowledge him was ascribed to the supernatural power of their satanic master. 

The only other group that continuously resisted Christianity was the witch cult.  The Jews were thus depicted as openly worshiping the blackest of masters, whose non-Jewish devotees, by contrast, were depicted as at least having the decency to pay their homage in secrecy....

No imagined crime was too heinous to be ascribed to them.  As they had been guilty of the crucifixion, they were regarded as symbolically repeating the crime by the sacrificial murder of Christian victims, especially at Passover time.

The blood libel has persisted down to our own times and was used by the Nazis....

For the radical anti-Semite, there is only one solution—the extermination of the Jews.  This is ritual murder made morally acceptable to the perpetrator by the deicide accusation....

When the anti-Semite accuses the Jew of ritual murder, he accuses him of the very crime that he himself intends to commit. 

At the same time, he fails to comprehend the inherent gratuity of the whole business.  The death of the sacrificial victim solves no problem in the real world.
___________________

An aside:  Freud noted that Christianity begins with such a crime—and that the cannibalistic aspect of the primal crime are repeated in the Mass....

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More extractions from “Religion and the Origins of the Death Camps:  A Psychoanalytic Interpretation” by Professor Richard L. Rubenstein in the 1992 edition of his book “After Auschwitz”. 

National Socialism:  An Inversion of Judeo-Christian Values

National Socialism was an inverted and demonic transformation of Jewish and Christian values combined with a romantic hankering after a paganism it never understood. It needed the Judeo-Christian yes to assert the National Socialist no.  The Greeks were pagan....  Hubris was the rebellion against our limits....  Hubris was followed, as night follows day, by inevitable nemesis, which righted the wrong and restored nature’s disturbed equilibrium.  Good and evil were rooted in the very nature of the cosmos itself.  By disturbing nature’s equilibrium, evil was in a sense unnatural; inevitably fate would overtake it perpetrators.  All things were measured out, and even the gods could not trespass their assigned limits. 

National Socialism is the product of a negative reaction to and an inversion of the values of the Judeo-Christian world.  As much as the nineteenth and twentieth-century Teutonists wanted to rid themselves of Christianity, they were far more influenced by it than they imagined....  They were never able to restore a genuine paganism....

National Socialism is Judeo-Christian heresy, not paganism.  It presupposes, though it overturns, both its mythos and its ethos.

The difference between the Judeo-Christian conception of sin and the Greek concept of hubrisis is of decisive importance.  In the Judeo-Christian universe, good and evil are not rooted in the nature of things.  The natural and moral worlds were regarded as entirely dependent upon the omnipotent will of the Creator-God.  He who created the natural world also created good and evil....

In biblical religion, God’s will is not subject to man’s critical scrutiny [see the Book of Job].  We are expected to comply because of the ultimate authority of the Source.

Only in the Judeo-Christian conception of a divinely created cosmos does deicide make sense as an anti-value explosion. It did not make sense in paganism....

There are dying gods a plenty in paganism, but no pagan could ever join Ivan Karamazov in declaring that if God did not exist, everything would be permitted. 

Only in biblical religion is there a meaningful motive for deicide as a human temptation, for only in biblical religion are all norms derived from the God who transcends them.  The wish to murder God makes sense only when all values derive from Him.

In such a system the deicidal act is an assertion of the will to total moral and religious license.....  [O]nly the terrible accusation, known and taught to every Christian in earliest childhood, that the Jews are the killers of Christ, can account for the depth and persistence of this supreme hatred. 

In a sense, the death camps were the terminal expression of Christian anti-Semitism.  Without Christianity, the Jews would never have become the central victims.  Moreover, the hatred lives.  Every swastika painted on a public place or Jewish establishment since the end of World War II is an expression of dark admiration for Auschwitz. 

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As quoted in my previous post, an observation worthy of further discussion:

In a sense, the death camps were the terminal expression of Christian anti-Semitism.  Without Christianity, the Jews would never have become the central victims.  Moreover, the hatred lives.  Every swastika painted on a public place or Jewish establishment since the end of World War II is an expression of dark admiration for Auschwitz. 

However it recommended to read the entire previous posting from May 21 before further discussion.  The other more recent postings from “Religion and the Origins of the Death Camps:  A Psychoanalytic Interpretation” by Professor Richard L. Rubenstein in the 1992 edition of his book “After Auschwitz” are highly recommended to read in order to better understand Professor Rubenstein’s conclusions.

Hey Paul, despite your obsession with the Holocaust......I’d like to remind you that this is a ‘spam forum’, and the administration kindly asks you to refrain from future posts.........Unless you have some counterfiet Nikes for sale.......

thank you,
ghost

Don’t you think that the whole idea that it is possible to kill an omnicient, omnipotent God is ridiculous?  Just goes to show you that Christians have no ability to reason in this area.

When I was going to church (Evangelical Free Church)we were taught that God sent Jesus to Earth to die.(for our sins.  He was the blood sacrifice by which God was propitiated)
That was his plan.
So the jews were simply fulfilling God’s “orders”, and therefore are blameless.

So exactly why did the church “fathers” fill their followers with this nonsense?

I don’t think that Hitler’s dislike of the Jews had anything to do with what allegedly happened to them.

Paul, you haven’t refuted my population figures.
Did you or did you not review the opposing evidence?
You do think it is fair to listen to the other side of the story don’t you?

OhZone - 26 May 2009 07:36 PM

Don’t you think that the whole idea that it is possible to kill an omnicient, omnipotent God is ridiculous?  Just goes to show you that Christians have no ability to reason in this area.

Then you simply don’t “get it”. 

When I was going to church (Evangelical Free Church)we were taught that God sent Jesus to Earth to die.(for our sins.  He was the blood sacrifice by which God was propitiated)
That was his plan.

Now you are “getting it” a little.

So the jews were simply fulfilling God’s “orders”, and therefore are blameless.

But not in your world view.

So exactly why did the church “fathers” fill their followers with this nonsense?

You need to read the entire article, or at least my extractions from the article.

I don’t think that Hitler’s dislike of the Jews had anything to do with what allegedly happened to them.

And that is a sack of feces.  What “allegedly happened to them”.  You would deny the Nazi archives that proves the Holocaust, and then include the surviving eyewitnesses, Nazi and nonNazi, other documentary evidence and proof, et al.  Hitler hated the Jews.  He did not merely dislike the Jews.  Otherwise he would not have directed the murder of some five to six million Jews. 

Paul, you haven’t refuted my population figures.

Don’t need to.  They are bogus.

Did you or did you not review the opposing evidence?

Bogus “evidence”.

You do think it is fair to listen to the other side of the story don’t you?

Please quit your Nazi sympathizer or supporter fecal material.

bridgeghost - 24 May 2009 07:52 PM

Hey Paul, despite your obsession with the Holocaust......I’d like to remind you that this is a ‘spam forum’, and the administration kindly asks you to refrain from future posts.........Unless you have some counterfiet Nikes for sale.......

thank you,
ghost

I’ve noticed.

Where is the moderator?

No, I don’t get it.  How do you kill a God? 
I could go on about my thoughts of that “blood sacrifice”.  Like why does this omniscient, omnipotent, loving God need someone’s blood to appease him?  This is quite macabre, don’t you think?  From reading the Bible I get that He liked blood quit a lot.  This was one of the key points that turned me off on this religion. 

O: “So the jews were simply fulfilling God’s “orders”, and therefore are blameless.”

P: “But not in your world view.”

****Do you care to explain.  Were the Jews fulfilling God’s orders or not?  I was told that this was His plan.  (Since He wrote the script.)
I did read the article as you posted it.

You cannot prove that 6 million Jews were killed.
You do not have population figures to refute those I posted.
You have no proof, only your “belief” which has no basis in fact.

Your accusation of “Nazi sympathizer” is over the edge there Paul.
You are resorting to childlike behavior.

OhZone - 27 May 2009 06:58 PM

No, I don’t get it.  How do you kill a God?

I could go on about my thoughts of that “blood sacrifice”.

Like why does this omniscient, omnipotent, loving God need someone’s blood to appease him? 

This is quite macabre, don’t you think?  From reading the Bible I get that He liked blood quit a lot. 

This was one of the key points that turned me off on this religion. 

O: “So the Jews were simply fulfilling God’s “orders”, and therefore are blameless.”

P: “But not in your world view.”

****Do you care to explain. 

Were the Jews fulfilling God’s orders or not? 

I was told that this was His plan.  (Since He wrote the script.)

I did read the article as you posted it.

Then I’ll leave you to your own intelligence on the above.

You cannot prove that 6 million Jews were killed.

I have stated five to six million Jews.  The proof is abundant, including most especially the various Nazi archives as well as archival materials that were seized by the Allies during and after WW II.


You do not have population figures to refute those I posted.

I don’t need too.  The facts from the archival materials alone defeat your mere assertions and the reliabilty of your sources.

You have no proof, only your “belief” which has no basis in fact.

Please see the proof cited earlier in this posting, as well as every single book, magazine, article, journal that is available about the Holocaust.  Oh, Zone, you are so very, very, very inaccurate and wrong.  And your world view prevents you fron truly seeing and understanding the facts.

Your accusation of “Nazi sympathizer” is over the edge there Paul.

Not according to all the postings I’ve read from you over the years at the St. Petersburg Times former forums and these forums.

You are resorting to childlike behavior.

You are resorting to lies, distortions, your hatred of Jews, et al.

You can’t prove 5 million Jews either.
The Nazis kept records on who they executed?
So show me these archival records as to populations etc.
Surely you must have seen them?
You have cited no proof.
Your books written by Jews are not proof.
How about all the books written by non-jews?
Why do you believe only the books written by the Jews?
Why do you refuse to look at the other side of the story?

I suppose you have a firm belief that every word allegedly written by Anne Frank are true also.
You are resorting to insults due to being out argued.

Are you in favor of sending people to jail for questioning the alleged holocaust?

If it was really true, why do the Jews object to thorough investigation?

Abe Foxman says “Holocaust” was assault on God Himself – thus, according to him, the Jews = God
As an example of how the “Holocaust” is now replacing the Crucifixion as the central event of history, the Jew Abe Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League wrote this:

Abraham Foxman, ADL on the Frontline, January 1994 Issue: “The Holocaust is something different.

It is a singular event. It is not simply one example of genocide but a near successful attempt on the life of God’s chosen children and thus, on God Himself. It is an event that is the antithesis of Creation as recorded in the Bible; and like its direct opposite, which is relived weekly with the Sabbath and yearly with Torah, it must be remembered from generation to generation.”
He says that the “Holocaust” is an attack on God Himself. What was the Crucifixion? It was an attack on God Himself. This is the replacement of Christ with the Jews.

SO, PAUL, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?
Now then if the Jews are God’s chozen, we of course should give them everything they want.
Maybe you think we should worship them.
-----------------------------------------------

“On the basis of the analysis, this is where we stand now:
First, out of the study of the statistics of the World Center of Contemporary Jewish Documentation and from its own data, we find 1,589,492 European Jews dead or missing as a consequence of Nazi persecutions in concentration camps or in some other way. Second, out of the study of Mr. Raul Hilberg’s data we find only 987,592 dead or missing Jews.”

http://www.ihr.org/books/rassinier/debunking2-15.html

And we have this from:http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/the_holocaust.php

Facts which contradict the official “Holocaust” story
-The propaganda hoax which has been so effectively used to cement Jewish power and influence in the world, and to silence any questioning of Jewish activities, support for Israel or a Jewish agenda-
A Jew debunks the Auschwitz “Gas Chamber,” the official Holocaust Story, and many other aspects of the Holocaust
The Truth Behind the Gates of Auschwitz, by David Cole - Part 1 [30 min.]

“There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

****Judging from the number of Jews in high places in our government it appears that they have stolen our country too.  Many of them are duel citizens.
We also send Israel billion$.  They steal our money too.
They run the world’s money system.
They therefore control the world’s economies.

Jews control the media.  All commercial news outlets are censored by them.  You will know nothing they do not want you to know.

...The fact that Zionists control virtually every media outlet in America is no doubt why the American citizenry hears only one version of events in the Middle East-the pro-Jew, pro-Israeli side. This led Dr. Kevin MacDonald, professor at California State University, to write:

“In the contemporary world, organized American Jewish lobbying groups and deeply committed Jews in the media are behind the pro-Israel U.S. foreign policy that is leading to war against virtually the entire Arab world…..”

There is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.” — President Woodrow Wilson

The American mind simply has not come to a realization of the evil which has been introduced into our midst.” J. Edgar Hoover

OhZone - 28 May 2009 03:29 PM

You can’t prove 5 million Jews either.

Yes I can.  The Nazi archives is an excellent beginning point.

The Nazis kept records on who they executed?

Yes.

So show me these archival records as to populations etc.

Do some key word searches.

Surely you must have seen them?

Yes.  Cited in many books and articles.

You have cited no proof.

Yes.  Cited in many books and articles.  And on “60 Minutes” the archives were shown as well as interviews with the pertinent people.

Your books written by Jews are not proof.

You demonstrate your lack of knowledge.  John Roth, co-author of Approaches to Auschwitz, is a Christian—but one example.  This is the best selling of all textbooks regarding the Holocaust.  Also review the books available at Amazon and other key word searches.

How about all the books written by non-jews?

See the above response.

Why do you believe only the books written by the Jews?

I don’t.

Why do you refuse to look at the other side of the story?

I don’t.  However I find the credibility of the survivors, the Nazi archives, documents from throughout Germany and occupied Europe, etc. far more credible than your “sources”, which are from Neo-Nazi and the like organizations. 

I suppose you have a firm belief that every word allegedly written by Anne Frank are true also.
You are resorting to insults due to being out argued.

Anne Frank wrote a diary.  She was 15 years old.  Obviously she had a limited view of the world hiding in a sympathetic family’s attic.

Are you in favor of sending people to jail for questioning the alleged Holocaust?

No.  Not ever.  Never.  Freedom to think and speak.  Not 1984 nor Brave New World.

If it was really true, why do the Jews object to thorough investigation?

How many do?

Abe Foxman says “Holocaust” was assault on God Himself – thus, according to him, the Jews = God.

As an example of how the “Holocaust” is now replacing the Crucifixion as the central event of history, the Jew Abe Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League wrote this:

Abraham Foxman, ADL on the Frontline, January 1994 Issue: “The Holocaust is something different.

It is a singular event. It is not simply one example of genocide but a near successful attempt on the life of God’s chosen children and thus, on God Himself.

It is an event that is the antithesis of Creation as recorded in the Bible; and like its direct opposite, which is relived weekly with the Sabbath and yearly with Torah, it must be remembered from generation to generation.”

He says that the “Holocaust” is an attack on God Himself. What was the Crucifixion? It was an attack on God Himself. This is the replacement of Christ with the Jews.

SO, PAUL, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?

The Holocaust was an attack upon God as understood in the biblical tradition, as Dr. Richard L. Rubenstein so elequently stated in earlier postings on this thread. 

Both the Holocaust and the Crucifixtion are attacks on God as understood by the biblical tradition.

More in the next posting.

quote author="OhZone" date="1243556991"]

“On the basis of the analysis, this is where we stand now:

First, out of the study of the statistics of the World Center of Contemporary Jewish Documentation and from its own data, we find 1,589,492 European Jews dead or missing as a consequence of Nazi persecutions in concentration camps or in some other way. Second, out of the study of Mr. Raul Hilberg’s data we find only 987,592 dead or missing Jews.”

I have read Raul Hilberg’s works—what you write is a misrepresention.  He is one of the greatest Holocaust scholars.

http://www.memorialdelashoah.org/getHomeAction.do?langage=en

http://www.ihr.org/books/rassinier/debunking2-15.html

And we have this from:http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/the_holocaust.php

Facts which contradict the official “Holocaust” story

-The propaganda hoax which has been so effectively used to cement Jewish power and influence in the world, and to silence any questioning of Jewish activities, support for Israel or a Jewish agenda-
A Jew debunks the Auschwitz “Gas Chamber,” the official Holocaust Story, and many other aspects of the Holocaust

The Truth Behind the Gates of Auschwitz, by David Cole - Part 1 [30 min.]

The quote above clearly demonstrates absolutely no neutrality nor objectivity.  The words are so similar to Hitler’s words.

“There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

The context of the above quote is essential to understand what the author is seeking to communicate.  You have removed the context.

****Judging from the number of Jews in high places in our government it appears that they have stolen our country too.  Many of them are dual citizens.

Numerous Americans retain dual citizenship—besides to Israel.

We also send Israel billion$.  They steal our money too.

The United States Congress and the President provide those monies to Israel.  Thus the money is not stolen.  That is such a bizarre argument, Oh Zone.

They run the world’s money system.

They are definitely influential since education is such a high priority for many Jews—although certainly not all.  But is Robert Gates Jewish?  And that list of Gentiles who run the world money system is long, much longer.  Prove me otherwise. 

They therefore control the world’s economies.

[bSee the immediately above comment by men.]

Jews control the media.  All commercial news outlets are censored by them.  You will know nothing they do not want you to know.

Tell that to NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, FoxNews, NPR, BBC, et al.  You will be laughed out of their offices and you would be considered a lunatic.  Prove me otherwise.

...The fact that Zionists control virtually every media outlet in America is no doubt why the American citizenry hears only one version of events in the Middle East-the pro-Jew, pro-Israeli side.

What are your sources for the news regarding Israel, the Palestinians and the Middle East?

This led Dr. Kevin MacDonald, professor at California State University, to write:

“In the contemporary world, organized American Jewish lobbying groups and deeply committed Jews in the media are behind the pro-Israel U.S. foreign policy that is leading to war against virtually the entire Arab world…..”

Two wars already won by the Israelis— 1967 and 1973.  Not bad for such a small and insigificant country.  There are millions of Christians who support Israel financially, in writings and speeches, etc. 

I sure hope that Israel retaliates with sufficient weapons before a hostile country even begins to use nuclear weapons against Israel, e.g. most especially Iran.

There is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.” — President Woodrow Wilson

Context?

The American mind simply has not come to a realization of the evil which has been introduced into our midst.” J. Edgar Hoover

Context?