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The Challenge of the Holocaust to Christians, Jews and Others
Posted: 10 October 2009 11:32 AM  
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OhZone - 06 October 2009 06:57 PM


I don’t really think they mind being hated.  It has kept their group in tact for a very long time. hasn’t it?

Pogroms and mass murder of millions???????  That is not what you call “kept their group intact”.

In the United States, for many years there was (and obviously still is thanks to you and others) prejudice in obtaining work, where one can reside, etc.  Most of these issues were in large part solved by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and United States Supreme Court decisions. 


That’s some strong language there Paul.  Are you sure that you are reading me right.

That’s why I’m asking you the question.

I don’t really hate the people.  I hate what some of them do.
Are you attempting to control what I think about things?

Now that statement is simply bizarre.


Do I need your permission to love or hate or simply dislike whomever I please?

Now that statement is also simply bizarre.

Should I love all Jews?

You are going to do what you are going to do.

Do you like what they have done to this country?

Many Jews have made the United States of America a much better country.

I have already showed you that they are in high places in government and that they control the media..

So?  “They” control only portions of the “media”.  So?

To reiterate: 

Just admit it, Oh Zone, you hate Jews. 

And do you hate Jews of any time in history? 

But why exactly do you hate Jews in all of history?

That is the real issue with you.  Hatred of Jews. 

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Posted: 10 October 2009 11:45 AM  
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Oh Zone,

Thank you for your clarification regarding slavery.

Next question:  Should all Americans, including the decendents of slaves, have equal rights in the United States of America?

I am attempting to better understand your worldview.

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Posted: 10 October 2009 06:25 PM  
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Paul writes: “Next question: Should all Americans, including the decendents of slaves, have equal rights in the United States of America? “

**** Rather a foolish question I would say.  Of course everyone should have equal rights.
And I do mean equal. There should not be “Affirmative Action” that gives women and minorities first consideration for jobs of any kind.  This should be on the basis of merit or in the case of awarding contracts to whomever would have gotten them based on; usually the $$$.

quoting Paul: “To reiterate:
Just admit it, Oh Zone, you hate Jews.
And do you hate Jews of any time in history?
But why exactly do you hate Jews in all of history?
That is the real issue with you. Hatred of Jews.”

****(sigh) Paul, you seem to have a problem here, with either reading comprehension or you are just plain biased to where you see hate everywhere you look.
Stating facts about anyone or group of any race is not hate.

Criticizing is not the same as hate.

Doesn’t it make you wonder WHY Jews have been the subject of distrust and suspicion for so many years?

.Paul says"” Many Jews have made the United States of America a much better country.”

****Maybe you would like to tell me exactly how they made the USA a better country?
They have been bleeding us ever since they came here.
Now that is not a statement of hate; it is a fact.

Do you think that the Jews hate the Palestinians?  Are you going to label them “Anti-Semite? And complain that they are haters?

BTW, have you ever read any of the Talmud?
What do you think of it?

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Posted: 24 October 2009 02:21 PM  
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Below are just a few of the books that prove conclusively and absolutely false the assertions of the Holocaust deniers and their ilk of Nazis, Neo-Nazis, racists, etc. 

These books describe in great detail with the appropriate documentation the facts of the Holocaust and related matters vs. the lies and fabrications of the Holocaust deniers. 

History on Trial: My Day in Court with a Holocaust Denier (P.S.) by Deborah E. Lipstadt.  The trial was the result of David Irving suing Lipstadt for libel in England.  The judge’s over 400 page decision totally destroyed Irving’s Holocaust denying “scholarship” and showed him to be the liar that he and other Holocaust deniers are. 

The book that Irving sued about is Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory by Lipstadt.

Among the expert witnesses at the trial, some have written books based upon their research and conclusions regarding the Holocaust and regarding Irving:

The Case for Auschwitz: Evidence from the Irving Trial by Robert Jan van Pelt.

Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust Holocaust And The David Irving Trial by Richard J. Evans.

Aother excellent resource among thousands is:

The Years of Extermination: Nazi Germany and the Jews, 1939-1945 by Saul Friedlander.

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Posted: 24 October 2009 05:01 PM  
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I really wouldn’t consider that Book or that Judge’s opinion to be the last word in the matter.
There are also books that have an opposite story.

David Irving is not the only one exposing this Hoax.

Why don’t you read “The Holocaust Industry”, by the Jew, Norman Finkelstein.
You do belive in being Fair and Balanced, don’t you.

Also you are totally ignoring the physical situation of the time.
Such as the fact that the Allies had bombed the supply lines so that food an medicine could not be delivered.  How healty a place do you think any city, town, camp or other gathering of lots of people would be under such circumstances?

What ever in the world makes you think that Germany who was fighting a War on Two Fronts had the Time and the Resources to put so mucgh effort into killing people who presumably were prisoners?

And those “Ovens” that they talk about ---- do you really think that they were used to kill people?
Have you ever considered that they were likely the Crematory?
People were dying from diseases.  The bodies ahd to be disposed of.

How about the population figures on that Jewish web site.....did you even look at it?
If so why did you ignore it.  Do you think they would not be honest in their reporting?

This seems to have become a religion to you.  You must be Jewish.

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Posted: 25 October 2009 03:05 PM  
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For those sincerely interested in history:

Below are just a few of the books that prove conclusively and absolutely false the assertions of the Holocaust deniers and their ilk of Nazis, Neo-Nazis, racists, etc. 

These books describe in great detail with the appropriate documentation the facts of the Holocaust and related matters vs. the lies and fabrications of the Holocaust deniers. 

History on Trial: My Day in Court with a Holocaust Denier (P.S.) by Deborah E. Lipstadt.  The trial was the result of David Irving suing Lipstadt for libel in England.  The judge’s over 400 page decision totally destroyed Irving’s Holocaust denying “scholarship” and showed him to be the liar that he and other Holocaust deniers are. 

The book that Irving sued about is Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory by Lipstadt.

Among the expert witnesses at the trial, some have written books based upon their research and conclusions regarding the Holocaust and regarding Irving:

The Case for Auschwitz: Evidence from the Irving Trial by Robert Jan van Pelt.

Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust Holocaust And The David Irving Trial by Richard J. Evans.

Aother excellent resource among thousands is:

The Years of Extermination: Nazi Germany and the Jews, 1939-1945 by Saul Friedlander.

These books demolish the lies and distortions like those of Oh Zone.

No need for me to further respond as the authors of these books have done the hard and laborious work of factually debunking Irving, Oh Zone and others of their ilk.

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Posted: 25 October 2009 03:07 PM  
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OhZone - 24 October 2009 05:01 PM

I really wouldn’t consider that Book or that Judge’s opinion to be the last word in the matter.
There are also books that have an opposite story.

David Irving is not the only one exposing this Hoax.

Why don’t you read “The Holocaust Industry”, by the Jew, Norman Finkelstein.
You do belive in being Fair and Balanced, don’t you.

Also you are totally ignoring the physical situation of the time.
Such as the fact that the Allies had bombed the supply lines so that food an medicine could not be delivered.  How healty a place do you think any city, town, camp or other gathering of lots of people would be under such circumstances?

What ever in the world makes you think that Germany who was fighting a War on Two Fronts had the Time and the Resources to put so mucgh effort into killing people who presumably were prisoners?

And those “Ovens” that they talk about ---- do you really think that they were used to kill people?
Have you ever considered that they were likely the Crematory?
People were dying from diseases.  The bodies ahd to be disposed of.

How about the population figures on that Jewish web site.....did you even look at it?
If so why did you ignore it.  Do you think they would not be honest in their reporting?

This seems to have become a religion to you.  You must be Jewish.

The books cited definitively prove that you and Irving are liars.  Each point that you assert is definitvely defeated by the authors of these books and the facts that defeated Irving at trial.  Same old, same old lies. 

I am not Jewish.

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Posted: 25 October 2009 05:01 PM  
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Paul you are also calling Norman Finkelstein a liar?
He is exposing the Jews who are using the “holocaust” to extort money from wherever they can get it.  They have made an industry of it.

Video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BaJCRXsgt4
Interview with Dr. Finkelstein

You might also want to look at this one.
How much Us $$$$ to Israel?
And are you in favor of this?
Or do you think that this money could have been better spent here at home?
Who is more important to you; US Citizens or Israeli Jews?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8A6oXdjkhY&feature=related

How about Ernst Zundel
Shame on Germany for their detested Holocaust Lobby Protection
Paragraph imprisoning revisionist researchers for “thought crimes” ! -
Weg mit dem verabscheuten deutschen Gesetz zum Schutz der
Holocaust-Lobby - mißbraucht zur Inhaftierung von Revisionisten
wegen “Gedankenverbrechen” !-
http://www.revisionists.com/revisionists/zundel.html

Gerd Honsik
http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=1644

Sylvia Stolz
http://www.zundelsite.org/news_english/0019Sylvia.html

Dr.Frederick Tobin
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/stories/s224007.htm

Wolfgang Frohlich
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n2p58_Swiss.html

Bishop Richard Williamson
http://www.zundelsite.org/news_english/0027abrahamovicz.html

Germar Rudolf
http://www.germarrudolf.com/persecute/

Robert Faurisson
Robert Faurisson, 60, suffered broken jaw and ribs and severe head injuries in the attack by three Jewish thugs while walking his dog in Vichy, Sep 17, 1989
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Faurisson/

Paul, do you think people should go to jail for questioning the “holocaust” event?

People deny Jesus all the time.  In the last 100 years anyway, none of them have been treated so badly as these people have been.
Why do you suppose that is?

So, just who are the haters here?  The researchers seeking the Truth, or those who do not want investigations at all? 
The Jews stand to gain if there are no investigations, don’t they?
They stand to lose a lot if Their Story is revealed as Falsse, don’t they?

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Posted: 11 November 2009 07:55 AM  
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I’m currently doing a research on this so i’m taking some bits and pieces of the info and news posted in this thread. Thanks.

Regards,
Raide
Placement financier

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Posted: 14 November 2009 04:30 PM  
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raide - 11 November 2009 07:55 AM

I’m currently doing a research on this so i’m taking some bits and pieces of the info and news posted in this thread. Thanks.


Regards,
Raide
Placement financier

I hope that you are finding this thread and the books referred to as being very helpful in your research.  Perhaps I can refer you to books on more specific topics?

Paul

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Posted: 19 November 2009 03:03 AM  
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I have read much about American history, and much more about the southern states as Florida is one of them.I think for some reasons for that.

Regards

Greysone
Surendettement

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Posted: 23 November 2009 09:09 PM  
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The famous Poznan speech of Heinrich Himmler of October 4, 1943 was recorded on a Nazi gramophone record. He talks openly about the murder of the Jews and adds that this murder should never and will never become known. 

[See IMT (Nuremberg Documents), PS 1919]

Does he imply that no one will ever be able to understand him?  I do not think so.  Himmler was, after all, not unique in his murderous intentions.  Not to understand him would mean that we cannot understand any parallel or similar event in history.  If we cannot understand this aspect of human history, we cannot explain anything at all, because half of history is murder and brutality.  In that case, history becomes irrelevant.

But if Himmler was human—and he was—then his motives were human....

If Himmler is to be explained, then his statement that the murder should never become known is simply the expression of his fear, pointed out in a previous passage of the same speech, that the German people would not understand the Nazi motivation if murder was acknowledged and might reject the murder. 

In addition, he foresaw a world without Jews, and he thought that future generations of Germans would not understand why total mass murder had been necessary, because they would have had no experience of who and what the Jews had been. 

Himmler’s statement is therefore explainable and his actions can be understood.  Indeed, as far as brutality, the will to murder, and sadism are concerned, little is unique about the Nazis except that they went further than any of their predecessors.

Quoted directly from Rethinking the Holocaust by Yehuda Bauer (2001), pages 21-22 hardback version, chapter two:  “Is the Holocaust Explicable?”

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Posted: 23 November 2009 09:11 PM  
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For those with doubts about Adolph Hitler’s agenda:

“As in every year since 1933, the Reichstag was convened in festive session on January 30, 1939, to mark the anniversary of Hitler’s accession to power. 

Hitler’s speech started at 8:15 in the evening and lasted for more than two and a half hours.... 

Up to [a] point, Hitler was merely rehashing an array of anti-Jewish themes that had become a known part of his repertory.  Then, however his tone changed, and threats as yet unheard in the public pronouncements of a head of state resonated in the Reichstag:

Hitler speaking:

“One thing I would like to express on this day, which is perhaps memorable not only for us Germans:  In my life I have often been a prophet, and I have mostly been laughed at. At the time of my struggle for power, it was mostly the Jewish people who laughed at the prophecy that one day I would attain in Germany the leadership of the state and therewith of the entire nation, and that among other problems I would also solve the Jewish one.  I think that the uproarious laughter of that time has in the meantime remained stuck in German Jewry’s throat.”

Then came the explicit menace:

“Today I want to be a prophet again:  If international finance Jewry inside and outside Europe again succeeds in precipitating the nations into a world war, the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth and with it the victory of the Jews, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe.”

From Saul Friedlander’s “Nazi Germany and the Jews:  Volume 1—The Years of Persecution:  1933 - 1939”, (1997), minor extractions from pages 308 - 310.  Friedlander quoted Hitler’s speech from “Hitler, Reden und Proklamationen,” pages 1056 - 1058.

-------------------------------------

Also from Adolph Hitler:

“As a fledgling political agitator (born in 1889), he had defined the goal of systematic anti-Jewish policy in his notorious first political text, the letter on the ‘Jewish question’ addressed on September 16, 1919, to one Adolf Gemlich.  In the short term the Jews had to be deprived of their civil rights:  “The final aim however must be the uncompromising removal of Jews altogether."”

From Saul Friedlander’s “Nazi Germany and the Jews:  Volume 1—The Years of Persecution:  1933 - 1939”, (1997), page 72, paperback version.  His source is “Nazism 1919 - 1945:  A Documentary Reader. 3 vols. Edited by Jeremy Noakes and Geoffrey Pridham (1983), vol 1, page 13. 

-------------------------------------

And Hitler again:

In 1933:

Hitler “avoided public statements on the Jewish issue, he could not restrain himself entirely.  In his closing speech at the September 1933 Nuremberg party rally, called (for the occasion) the Congress of Victory, he launched into disparaging comments about the Jews in his expostulations on the racial foundations of art: 

Hitler speaking:  “It is a sign of the horrible spiritual decadence of the past epoch that one spoke of styles without recognizing their racial determinants....  Each clearly formed race has its own handwriting in the book of art, insofar as it is not, like Jewry, devoid of any creative artistic ability.”

From Saul Friedlander’s “Nazi Germany and the Jews:  Volume 1—The Years of Persecution:  1933 - 1939”, (1997), page 71, paperback version.  Quoted from “Die deutsche Kunst als stolzeste Verteidigung des deutschen Volkes,” Nationalsozialistische Monatshefte 4, no. 34 (Oct. 1933), page 437.

---------------------------------------

Goebbels noted on December 29, 1939, in his diary: “The Fuhrer is profoundly religious but totally antichristian. He considers Christianity as a symptom of decline. Rightly so. It is a deposit of the Jewish race. One also notices it in the similarity of religious rituals. Both have no relation to animals and this will destroy them in the end.”

In the summer of 1941, Hitler brought up his theory about religion and world history: “The worst blow to have hit humankind is Christianity; Bolshevism is a bas.tard child of Christianity; both are the monstrous product of the Jews.”

From Saul Friedlander’s “Nazi Germany and the Jews: 1939 - 1945—The Years of Extermination (2008 paperback), pages 17 and 203.

----------------------------------------

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Posted: 21 December 2009 07:48 PM  
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From Rethinking the Holocaust --- Chapter Nine --- “Theology, or God the Surgeon”

I have not been reading theological responses to the Holocaust in quite some time.  However Yehuda Bauer’s Rethinking the Holocaust provides such:

Jewish (and Christian) theological explanations of the Holocaust offer a variety of justifications for God’s action or inaction at the time, some more and some less grounded in Jewish (and Christian) religious tradition.  That tradition has the concept of an all-powerful Being who cannot be asked for any explanation because humans are too puny to understand his leadership (hanhaga) of the world. 

His ways are not our ways.  God, then, can be removed from the argument altogether in consideration of Job’s submission at the end of his struggle with the Almighty:  Job admits God’s infiniteness and his own capacity to understand it. 

Indeed, with Job, God ultimately acts outside human morality; in other words, he is the ultimate cosmic power, beyond good and evil.  Regarding the Holocaust, this might appear to solve the problem.

Most orthodox commentators (and many nonorthodox ones as well) are right to ask then counterquestion:  Don’t ask where God was, because you cannot grasp his ways; instead, ask, where was Man? 

The ball is, so to speak, in the human, not the divine, court.  Of course, after having said that we cannot understand God’s actions, Jewish (and many Christian) religious thinkers then desperately try to do just that—namely, to understand them.

According to the second argument, all evil is grounded in the freedom that God has given humans to choose between good and bad.  Punishment for evil was, in the Psalms, promised to the evildoers in this world.  Later, punishment was transferred to the next world. 

In any case, evil is again a human choice, not a divine one.

There is a tension, even a contradiction, between the two arguments; the first says that we cannot question God’s leadership of the world (because we are too puny), and the second says that there is no need to question it (because he decided long ago to give freedom of choice to humans, and he will reward and punish us in due course). 

The second argument again creates a problem.  If Man is given the freedom to choose between good and evil (and a God-fearing Jew knows what good is:  to obey the 613 commandments of Jewish Law—halakhah, Torah), the freedom to choose may well apply to the Nazis:  they chose, and they chose evil.

Did the victims have any choice?

Hardly.

And if they chose what generally accepted standards would categorize as “good,” were they saved?

Were they saved if they were observant Jews and followed all the commandments?

Were they saved if they were not observant Jews?

Survival rates indicate the contrary of what the religious argument would suggest.  Among the largely unorthodox Jews of Western Europe—in France, Belgium, Italy and Denmark—a relatively high proportion of Jews survived, whereas among the orthodox Jews of Poland the proportion of survivors was minimal. 

Vehadra kushia le’dukhta—“the question returns to its beginning,” to use a phrase common in talmudic discourse.  In other words, the objection is not answered.

As to the first argument, orthodox thinkers, in contradiction of their own view (the “we are too puny” argument), still wonder what God’s purpose might have been, because obviously he who rules the world and determined that the Holocaust should happen. 

After all, according to tradition, God occasionally told humans why he did what he did.

Is not the whole Jewish tradition based upon the assumption that it was inspired by God, if not more than that, and that if the moral commandments it contains come from God, was he not more than just a neutral cosmic power—is he not obliged to act in accordance with his own decreed morality?

Serious ultraorthodox or haredi thinkers—I use the term they use to describe themselves:  haredi (hered means “[God]fearing")—addressed the question, and this is what they said and wrote after the Holocaust.

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Posted: 21 December 2009 07:50 PM  
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From Rethinking the Holocaust by Yehuda Bauer-- Chapter Nine --- “Theology, or God the Surgeon”.

Below are the last paragraphs that focuses on the theological implications of the murder of over one million children aged twelve and below:

Are we too puny to understand God’s plan—does that argument hold water? 

At least one million Jewish children under thirteen died in the Holocaust, and no one will argue that they were responsible for their deeds or misdeeds or that they could have sinned, at least according to the Jewish interpretation of sin.

True, one tradition visits the sins of the father (what about the mothers?) on their sons (what about daughters?), but more decisive is the tradition that says each person is responsible for her or his actions and therefore also for any transgressions.

Why were the children killed is the most bothersome question of all.  In the haredi interpretation they were killed because God did not intervene, although he undoubtedly could have, and of course he knew that they were going to die. 

If the answer is that we can never understand God’s intentions, the obvious and trite—but arguably true—reply is that we have no wish to know God’s intentions or reasons, whether we might understand them or not, because any reason, divine or human, for not preventing the murder of a million children when that murder might have been prevented is evil.

It can be judged evil by the very code of morals supposedlyl derived from divine inspiration.  Otherwise God becomes Satan, and Jews do not want to believe in Satan.

Perhaps the answer of Walter Zvi Bacharach is not so bad:  to be angry with God but to believe in him anyway.  From the nonorthodox point of view, even more so from a nonreligious point of view, theology does not seem to have come up with any answers to the Holocaust.  Historical, sociological, psychological, and maybe even philosophical explications have been more productive. 

Some might even doubt the relevance of the theological answers altogether, so far.  That, indeed, is my own position.  The theology of the Holocaust is fascinating, but it is a dead end.

_________________

Between the opening paragraphs in my previous post and the ending paragraphs in this post, Yehuda Bauer discusses the theological arguments of Martin Buber, Eliezer Berkovits, Emil Fackenheim, Rabbi Irving “Yitz” Greenberg; Chief Rabbi of Palestine in 1942, Yitzhak Halevi Herzog; Reb Yoel ("Yoelish") Teitelboym, the Satmarer Rebbe; Lord Immanuel Jacobovits, the former Chief Rabbi of Britain; Kalman Klonymus Shapira while in the Warsaw ghetto of 1940-1942; Walter Zvi Bacharach; Rabbi Menachem Mendel Shneershon (whom some within Habad believe is Messiah); Yossef Yitzhok Shneersohn, who led Habad during the Holocaust years; Chief Rabbi Avraham Hacohen Kook of Palestine until his death in 1935.

Most of the discussion regards Rabbi Menachem Mendel Shneershon’s theological analysis and struggles.

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